Justin Verlander: It Would Be a Joke if Miguel Cabrera Didn’t Win the AL MVP. And the Sabermetric Crowd Groans.
Miguel Cabrera is trying to do something nobody has done since 1967: capture the Triple Crown by leading the league in average (.333), home runs (41) and RBI (130). Cabrera is comfortably ahead in average (by .006) and RBI (by seven), but trails Josh Hamilton in homers by one. Cabrera’s got to be the AL MVP, right?
Not necessarily. The other player in contention is Angels rookie Mike Trout. He’s having a Cam Newton-like rookie year — .327 average (2nd), 27 homers, and 77 RBI, to go with 118 runs and 46 stolen bases. He turned 21 last month.
When asked about the MVP race between the two, Tigers’ ace Justin Verlander sounded off:
“Bullshit. That’s ridiculous. When was the last time there was a Triple Crown winner, ’67? OK. That would be a joke in my opinion. Come on. Even the fact he’s one home run away (from a Triple Crown) is just absolutely absurd. Just watch him. And watch him when we need him, down this home stretch. Oh my god. You want to talk about MVP. Compare their numbers the last two months of the season. Big difference.”
But Justin, the eye test and traditional stats don’t matter! You know how this works — baseball is now the domain of older fans and stat guys. And there’s only one stat that matters to them — WAR! Go to a ballpark and you’ll find maybe one person in your section who can accurately describe WAR. The stat places a large value on speed and defense, and thus Trout has a massive lead over Cabrera, 9.4 to 6.6.
Ornery, chain-smoking, F-bomb dropper Jim Leyland was asked about WAR. He seemed to know his answer would piss some people off, and this is what the old-school, anti-replay manager said:
“I will not use a player’s name, but according to the Sabermetrics, there’s a player that is better than Miguel Cabrera. When the guy that gave me the Sabermetrics told me that, I said, ‘Well then should we trade Miguel Cabrera for the player you’re talking about,’ and he said, ‘Oh no, you can’t do that.’ “And I said, ‘Well then you don’t believe in Sabermetrics, and neither do I.’”
My vote goes to Cabrera. I hope he wins. And to celebrate, I hope he goes on another Scotch-swigging bender — but calls a taxi, obviously.
Here’s a solution — when the Tigers and Angels both miss the postseason, why not give the award to Jeter? On a team decimated by injuries, he’s been the one constant — .322 average, a 200-hit season at the age of 37, and the Yankees will be playing in October. [Ed. GOODNESS PEOPLE, can you not see this is a joke???????]
ESPN needs to have Keith Law and Buster Olney debate this. [Detroit News]

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361 Responses to “Justin Verlander: It Would Be a Joke if Miguel Cabrera Didn’t Win the AL MVP. And the Sabermetric Crowd Groans.”
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September 20th, 2012 at 9:44 AM
So dumb.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:45 AM
I know that Trout has the better stats and is having a historically great season. But, Miggy’s stats in the 7th inning and beyond are crazy. Like .340+ 15 hrs. While Trout is hitting like .260 with 6 dingers in the 7th and beyond. Miggy’s clutch and the most feared hitter in baseball.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:47 AM
Yes, how do they get by with just Sabathia, A-Rod, Granderson, Cano, Texeria, Pettite, Chamberlin, Hughes, and Nova?
September 20th, 2012 at 9:49 AM
And that doesn’t matter. MVP is the sum of offense, defense and how you contribute on the basepaths. Cabrera is having one of the worst seasons ever for a 3B. Trout is already the best CF in baseball.
/Team Trout
//Williams hit for the triple crown twice and lost both times to DiMaggio
September 20th, 2012 at 9:49 AM
For any stats-nerds who didn’t see it, there was a good piece on fangraphs yesterday discussing this:
September 20th, 2012 at 9:49 AM
Miggy is a great player, but if he can’t lead his team to a better record than Trout’s team, then his case is dogshit. I’m not big on personal accolades and statistics.
Just win, baby.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:50 AM
If you actually watched baseball, you’d know about a guy named Josh Hamilton.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:50 AM
“No thanks”
-Jerry Dipoto
September 20th, 2012 at 9:50 AM
Hitting they are very close… but it was said very well by Craig Calcaterra today…
I love how, when assessing Mike Trout, people dismiss it as “sabermetrics.” Since when is defense and base running “sabermetrics?”
September 20th, 2012 at 9:50 AM
This line of thinking from Leyland and Dumbrowski is why the Tigers are “underachieving” this year. Meanwhile, anyone with half a brain saw that horrible infield defense they were going to trot out all season and new this team was overrated.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:50 AM
so wait…they’re angry that someone else is being considered? and what are they replying to…there’s no link or anything slamming miggy or saying trout deserves the MVP. really confused here.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:51 AM
I dont give a shit who wins the AL MVP. They’re all juicing anyway. Frauds.
- TBL
September 20th, 2012 at 9:51 AM
And Verlander HAS to say what he said. Is he supposed to go out and say his guy should not win the MVP?
September 20th, 2012 at 9:52 AM
If you’re talking about just defense, he’s not even the best CF on his own team.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:52 AM
Since when? Cabrera has improved vastly at 3B this year. Peralta’s horrible and Prince can’t field. If anything, Miguel moving to 3B for an inferior player to benefit the team shows that he’s the true MVP.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:52 AM
Pretty sure there was a post at some point in the summer about Hamilton being a lock for the MVP.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:52 AM
WAR don’t lie. But if Miggy wins the Triple Crown, it’d be hard to argue against him for historical reasons.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:52 AM
You cannot compare power numbers of Trout and Miggy. It’s ignorant and inaccurate. That’s why RBIs are a flawed measuring stick. Trout will never have more of those because he bats first. Also, Miggy only has a lot of RBIs because guys get on base for him.
It’s a given that Miggy will have better power numbers but Trout adds more to the team with his defense, baserunning, etc.
Also, do you expect Verlander and Leyland to say anything else?
September 20th, 2012 at 9:52 AM
Hey TBL I rarely comment here but please please please tell me this is satire. Thanks.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:53 AM
So fucking wrong. He’s the best defensive outfielder in all of baseball. And it’s not even close.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:53 AM
It’s all the old guys who can’t understand how Miggy isn’t a lock for the award because “he has all those homeruns and RBIs”. so stuck in the past.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:53 AM
I wouldn’t even say that is for stat-nerds. It’s fantastic, it’s just about looking beyond the “back of the baseball card” stats. Very cool work by Dave Cameron.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:54 AM
I’m a homer and all, but I won’t even try to make up this type of narrative.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:54 AM
Hot truth here. If the GM had any balls he would have told Miggy he was playing DH, period. Miggy is an absolute black hole at 3B.
Apparently we’re in NFL land where MVP must be the best offensive player.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:54 AM
Trout has damn near the same offensive numbers while playing great defense and a ridiculous number of stolen bases. Pretty simple case for him over Miguel Cabrera.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:54 AM
C’mon, you know that Delmon and Peralta are coming back? Get used to more Boesch and Kelly playing over Dirks and Garcia next year as well.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:55 AM
If anything, Miguel refusing to DH and instead going to a position he’s ill-suited for to benefit only himself shows that he’s not the MVP.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:55 AM
I would never give it to Jeter as I can’t award someone who licks taint on defense because he is old
September 20th, 2012 at 9:55 AM
Ha. Poor Peter Bourjos. What a waste.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:55 AM
Not really. Triple Crown winners have not been given the MVP award before.
But here’s what will happen. The old school writers will all vote for Miggy, because of the Triple Crown stats and because of Trout’s age. Miggy will probably win it. Won’t be the first time the writers have made the wrong choice.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:55 AM
I dont give a shit who wins the AL MVP. They’re all juicing anyway. Frauds.
- TBL
SHUT IT DOWN
/Yardwork?
September 20th, 2012 at 9:56 AM
Alex Rodriguez and Eric Chavez, the old injury prone men they are, have still been vastly superior at 3B this year.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:56 AM
Got to watch both guys last night, full games, (Heaven), and it’s just not as close. Cabrera better win it, by a significant amount of votes, too. Loved Leyland’s response.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:57 AM
No. Bourjos is better, but he obviously can’t hit as well. Shame he’s stuck on the bench.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:57 AM
and the talking heads wonder why Detroit didn’t run away with the division this year
September 20th, 2012 at 9:58 AM
why not give the award to Jeter?
That is a an awful big lure you are trolling with.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:58 AM
Please please no. I’ve been pretty blatant with my hate for Dombrowski. Unfortunately, he won’t be fired until Ilitch dies. I hope old man Ilitch just goes scorched earth with free agents this offseason.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:58 AM
LOL this is great
September 20th, 2012 at 9:59 AM
Bourjos is really good, could probably contribute 2-3 fWAR just based on his defense alone, but Trout is out of this world.
I stated before that Ted Williams hit for the Triple Crown twice in the 40s, but DiMaggio won MVP both seasons. There is precedent for this.
September 20th, 2012 at 9:59 AM
Vernon Wells isn’t a good hitter anymore but he still gets on the field. Bourjos must really suck
September 20th, 2012 at 9:59 AM
Historical like 1947?
Anyone else feel dumber after reading this post?
September 20th, 2012 at 9:59 AM
In all defensive metrics over the last few years, Miggy is a better 1b than Prince. Prince should be the DH.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:00 AM
The Tigers winning the division the last week of the season might give him the bump he needs (Bruce Chen broke my spirit last night)
September 20th, 2012 at 10:00 AM
/pours one out for victor martinez
September 20th, 2012 at 10:00 AM
Yes.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:00 AM
They should ditch Young, Peralta, Infante and Leyland. Go get Andrus, Phillips and Tito.
/Then miss the playoffs again
September 20th, 2012 at 10:01 AM
that’s usually the case when the author writes baseball posts
September 20th, 2012 at 10:01 AM
We’ll see. I don’t know if the writers are as “old school” as you think. The King Felix win might indicate a sea change.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:01 AM
I was in a nyQuil coma last night. Very happy to see Cy Chen was at it again.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:01 AM
I would like someone to hit a comebacker off of Valverde’s face
September 20th, 2012 at 10:02 AM
Only way Tigers are getting Andrus is if they give up Scherzer & Castellnos.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:02 AM
Dumbbrowski? All you’re missing is a “Fire Layland” for playing “Ray-bum.”
//rolls eyes
September 20th, 2012 at 10:02 AM
Touche.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:02 AM
let’s do this, even tho it’s not how you determine an MVP
who would you rather have on your team? we’ll call it TBL MVP
September 20th, 2012 at 10:03 AM
in other non-surprising baseball news, Dice-K, Aceves, and Daniel Bard continued their typical imploding ways.
/Dump them
//Fire Lucchino
September 20th, 2012 at 10:03 AM
Good point…that was a fun couple days, the “But Sabathia won 21 games!” crowd was in fine form
September 20th, 2012 at 10:03 AM
salma hayek
September 20th, 2012 at 10:03 AM
Tito is a good possibility. The other guys on your list? Probably not. Peralta and Young are almost definitely gone though. Infante can be a nice utility player. But not a starter.
If only Dombrowski knew how to draft players we might have some options. He sucks.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:04 AM
he also ate 21 games worth of ballpark franks
September 20th, 2012 at 10:04 AM
Won’t be surprised if the Tigers trade either Porcello or Scherzer
September 20th, 2012 at 10:04 AM
Ricky P, Boesch, Crosby, Smyly and Oliver.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:05 AM
Braun
September 20th, 2012 at 10:05 AM
I’d get rid of Boesch for anything I can get.
/whiffs
September 20th, 2012 at 10:06 AM
yeah, just crown Jeter’s fucking ass.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:06 AM
There is absolutely ZERO chance they trade Scherzer. He has very quietly put up amazing numbers his last 20 starts. Numbers better than Verlander. Porcello needs to go to a team with a solid defense. The discrepancy between his ERA and his xFIP is crazy.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:06 AM
As long as it’s called “TBL MVP” you gotta go Braun.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:06 AM
(Bruce Chen broke my spirit last night)
your spirit should have chen callouses on it by now
September 20th, 2012 at 10:07 AM
I’ve learned to go into baseball posts written by McTibble with zero expectations, that way when they are awful, you really don’t care. it’s kind of like the Costanza theory, “it’s not a lie, if you believe it.”
September 20th, 2012 at 10:08 AM
I rarely comment here too but this was brought to my attention. Stop writing about baseball, Jason. You’re embarrassing yourself and your website. Your solution offered up a leadoff hitter that trails Mike Trout in every conceivable measurement baseball has. There are more phases to baseball than offense. Mike Trout is having an exceptional season in all of them. Jack Kogod was right to group you in with the invalids. He just did it for the wrong reason.
There. You’ve received my 2 pageviews and a hate read. Here’s something to listen to that is understandable on the subject and more informative than what you’ve presented here. I would suggest you listen to it but this is likely falling on blind eyes.
Hi Jason Lisk. This is me tapping you in the AM as requested regarding Stephen Strasburg.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:08 AM
in other non-surprising baseball news, Dice-K, Aceves, and Daniel Bard continued their typical imploding ways.
Be really nice if they could lay down this weekend and give O’s 2 of 3 in Fenway.
/Why not?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:09 AM
i always appreciate an SC appearance in a baseball post
September 20th, 2012 at 10:10 AM
HVC, I am hoping the O’s sweep the Sox. Sox deserve it.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:10 AM
SC – If you can’t find the humor in this post, I can’t help you.
#TeamCabrera
September 20th, 2012 at 10:10 AM
I don’t think the King Felix win was necessarily a triumph of advanced stats. It was more a triumph of ERA over wins.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:10 AM
I know, but I meant considering the media will make a huge deal out of the fact that Miggy would be the first person to do it since Yaz in 1967.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:11 AM
fixed for stereotyped accuracy
September 20th, 2012 at 10:11 AM
Emailed with Tim this morning about this. Told him the reaction would be outstanding. You guys just make it too easy.
Yeah, Jeter’s got to have a shot at MVP!
September 20th, 2012 at 10:11 AM
I’ll laugh if Jeter wins MVP or even finishes top 5 this year. This isnt even one of his 10 best seasons.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:12 AM
Oh, this post was filled with a lot of humor. But the funny parts aren’t what you think they are.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:12 AM
I honestly hope they do
September 20th, 2012 at 10:12 AM
fuck, you guys moaned about yardwork and then you get a baseball post and you bitch about it. yardwork was just a recap and then we discussed baseball. what’s the diff?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:12 AM
Comedians who blame the audience for not laughing usually have outstanding careers.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:12 AM
AP, haven’t seen much of the Sox recently and see we get Lester tomorrow night. Any signs of life from him the last month or so? (I feel pretty good about getting to Cook on Sat.)
September 20th, 2012 at 10:13 AM
No he doesn’t.
Hits, doubles, HR and especially RBI aren’t even close.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:13 AM
Irony alert – Verlander’s bWAR is higher than Miggy’s.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:13 AM
Brazen stupidity is my favorite form of stupidity, too.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:13 AM
JETER WILL FINISH TOP 3!!
September 20th, 2012 at 10:13 AM
What’s great is how much you rip Skip Bayless but you’re literally the exact same person.
Though I don’t think you had to take roids to get your guns like he did.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:14 AM
Yup, this Sox fan agrees.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:14 AM
Cabrera also has him destroyed in GIDP and Outs Made.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:14 AM
O’s should be able to tag Lester. He’s been better than earlier in the season but he’s not unhittable. I think he just wants this season to be over. If the O’s can be patient, he’ll walk 5 or 6 of them.
Patience? Plate discipline? what’s that?
/Mark Reynolds
September 20th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
There was a posting on craigslist yesterday looking for actors in a foot fetish film. You’re paying WAY too low for this gig man.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
TRIPLE CROWN, CROWN CABRERA
- title of Mitch Albom’s next column.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
In the words of Huffy Puffy Tyler Duffy, these two statements seem incongruous:
September 20th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
i laughed
September 20th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
Plate Appearances: Cabrera, +60
Singles: Cabrera, +2
Doubles: Cabrera, +14
Triples: Trout, +6
Home Runs: Cabrera, +13
Walks + Hit By Pitch: Cabrera, +1
Ground Into Double Plays: Cabrera, +21
Total Bases: Cabrera, +64
Outs Made: Cabrera, +54
September 20th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
But an amusing one
Comparing counting stats is silly since Trout wasn’t on the roster opening day…and why use RBI (well, ever really) when one bats leadoff and the other third?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
Why would Jeter’s name be even brought into this conversation? There is still time to go in the season but Trout gets it right now. Trout didn’t get to play in the 1st 20 games of the season and his team is still 72-52 when he plays. The Angels losing the wildcard and division is due to their idiocity of not bringing him up to start the year and not because the last 2 month2 Trout has “just” put up .286/.368/.474.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:15 AM
September 20th, 2012 at 10:16 AM
Young is gone for sure next year, especially with Martinez returning from injury and Avisail Garcia probably manning an outfield corner.
I’m not sure of Peralta’s contract situation, but if it’s up, he’s gone. If not, it wouldn’t surprise me if they trade him.
Boesch should never be on a big league roster until he can stop with the giant helicopter swing, develop plate discipline and not suck in the outfield. He’ll be in the minors next year.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:16 AM
I don’t think you write with humor when you write about statistics. I think you write with arrogance and patronization.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:16 AM
A’s need to take 2 of 3 from the Yanks. O’s need to sweep Boston. MAKE IT HAPPEN! SHUT IT DOWN!
September 20th, 2012 at 10:16 AM
I’d love to see him win it, i’m a Yankees fan and i’m still pissed he didnt win in ’99 or ’06. But he’s not having an MVP caliber year. Cano has been their best player.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:16 AM
I can certainly find humor in this post.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:17 AM
I find the traditional/saber divide humorous.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:17 AM
Miggy also had an entire month’s worth of games in the book before Trout was called up.
/ignored by all Cabrera supporters
September 20th, 2012 at 10:18 AM
bosox fans: if they can;t win, then fucking go ahead and lose badly and all the time you fucks
viva la revolucion!
September 20th, 2012 at 10:18 AM
I’d say the non-stars have been the most valuable yankees all season (Ibanez, Jones, Chavez)
September 20th, 2012 at 10:18 AM
To me personally it’s Trout. He has more SB and is a better defensive player than Cabrera.
Oh and I would trade Cabrera for Trout in a fucking heartbeat.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:19 AM
Miggy also has 28 GIDPs, taking away 56 run possiblities. That’s really bad.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:19 AM
Guys, I was responding to the comment that the two have “damn near the same offensive numbers.” They do not.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:19 AM
This can’t be real logic.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:19 AM
Patience? Plate discipline? what’s that?
/Mark Reynolds
Hey now, I bashed the Sheriff and his defensive incompetence at 3B as much as anyone, but the guy leads the team in walks.
/an indictment of the team’s overall lack of anything resembling plate discipline
September 20th, 2012 at 10:19 AM
this season? yes
September 20th, 2012 at 10:20 AM
it was remarkable how quickly he performed the whip-over…they were at absence of blade, and tierce when all the sudden riposte ended the match. the epeé competition was much more fierce.
…we are talking fencing now right?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:20 AM
Not really
September 20th, 2012 at 10:20 AM
It filled me with joy to see Beckett and the Dodgers blow that 6 run lead last night. Sadly, they still won.
/hillbilly
September 20th, 2012 at 10:20 AM
First time in history there are 2 deserving candidates and one will be screwed.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:21 AM
communist
September 20th, 2012 at 10:21 AM
A’s need to take 2 of 3 from the Yanks. O’s need to sweep Boston. MAKE IT HAPPEN! SHUT IT DOWN!
/dons vintage Boog Powell jersey
//grabs pitchfork
///lights torch
September 20th, 2012 at 10:21 AM
TRIPLE CROWN, CROWN CABRERA
The drunk bastard I guess isn’t as hated a Williams who couldn’t win a MVP batting .356 with 36 HR and 137 RBI. Not sure why then a Triple Crown winner has to win the MVP.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:21 AM
They do if you use better comparison numbers…the only thing Miggy really has him in is slugging and even then Trout is 5th in the AL
September 20th, 2012 at 10:21 AM
Re: Trout’s “slide” over the last two months: I don’t watch enough Angels games, but is the thinking that his slide is due to?
A) Variance
B) Scouts have learned how to pitch him better
C) Fatigue
D) He’s not “clutch”
I’m curious if the answer is B and if we’ll see any drop off on his numbers next season.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:21 AM
dude, neither presidential candidate is deserving
September 20th, 2012 at 10:22 AM
guys, it’s gonna be Trout. that’s obvious. the post is here because
a) Verlander’s great quotes
b) Leyland’s great quote
c) the angry divide between old stat guys/new stat guys (see Moneyball)
if you can’t find the humor here, my humor needs work.
Lisk is interested in the REAL SERIOUS STATS angle, so he’ll have that later or tomorrow.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:22 AM
Jeter will finish behind Trout, Miggy, Verlander, Hamilton and Beltre for MVP.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:22 AM
*raises hand*
admittedly though, as a beisbol traditionalist, I chuckled after reading just the post title anticipating the commentariat reaction.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:22 AM
da, and sun rise in east, no problem.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:22 AM
NARRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRRATIVE
September 20th, 2012 at 10:23 AM
But to be honest, can’t that count against Trout? I know Ive seen it used against pitchers who don’t pitch the whole year and therefore don’t have the highest IP totals.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:23 AM
Miggy also has 28 GIDPs, taking away 56 run possiblities. That’s really bad.
I think if you look at the GIDP leaders in most years, they are often the hardest hitters in MLB. Yeah, you get some guys with bad wheels like Carlton Fisk up there all the time, but I think this is often linked to hard hitting batters, and guys who hit alot from the right side of the plate.
If we discount RBI as a metric tied to guys on base and not the hitters, wouldn’t GIDP be discounted as well?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:23 AM
Ding ding ding
September 20th, 2012 at 10:23 AM
There are a lot of numbers that can be compared. If you stretch Trout over a 162-game season and do the hypothetical, okay, fine. What about hits with RISP? 7th inning or later? Etc. Just curious.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:23 AM
i had no idea…i thought it was tim salmon’s to lose.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:23 AM
You know how easily we get worked up. Should’ve posted this 100 comments ago.
/DANCE, PUPPETS! DANCE!!
September 20th, 2012 at 10:24 AM
As long as Buck wins manager of the year, who cares?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:24 AM
In a perfect world Alex Rios too but I won’t lose sleep over who finishes 7th or wherever
September 20th, 2012 at 10:24 AM
for some voters, it will. It shouldn’t, but it will definitely be a factor for some folks
September 20th, 2012 at 10:24 AM
I do too.
I also find TBL’s assertions that people at a baseball game don’t understand new age concepts. Hell, I go to games with my dad and while he’s definitely more old-school leaning he knows (and appreciates) new-school statistics. Hell, he read Moneyball.
TBL must be friends with Neanderthals.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:24 AM
Cabrera will sponsor “Triple Crown Royal” by Seagrams Corp. and will get drunk on it all offseason to promote the product.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:25 AM
If you look at their numbers, they’re replacement players playing at a replacement level. Chavez is easily the best of the 3, the other 2 have fallen off quite a bit.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:25 AM
And the new stat guys are the ones with MBAs, are taking over almost all of the GM/Front Office positions and have defensive/offensive proprietary stats that we don’t even know of.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:25 AM
this season? yes
you mean, you;ve been understanding and sensitive to their losing in years past?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:25 AM
Not a valid MVP measuring stick, IMO, because it relies on the other guys actually getting on base. Miggy batting in the middle is more likely to have guys on base than a guy hitting leadoff
September 20th, 2012 at 10:26 AM
scripty, as someone who’s watched probably 85% of the Tigers games this season, I can tell you (eyeball test!!!!) that the majority of his GIDPs are pissrods hit at the 3B or SS. If they were hit a foot or two to the right or left of the defender, that’s another hit because even the rangiest defenders will struggle to get to them because of their speed.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:26 AM
I don’t think there’s an angry divide since most reasonable fans know it’s easy to blend the two…the only real annoyances seem to come from people not interested in learning more than BA/HR/RBI so the snark flows
September 20th, 2012 at 10:26 AM
This is perpetuated by lazy members of the media, and people who associate with meatheads.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:26 AM
actually, yes. there were years where they were less talented at the start of the season but they tried all damn year. some of this team gave up in June
September 20th, 2012 at 10:26 AM
I’m not going to scan through all the rest of the comments but no way. Bourjos is better. In fact I think Trout will have to move to a corner sooner rather than later.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:27 AM
I bet some voters will also go with the notion that he’s getting the ROY award anyway, so he shouldnt get the MVP yet
September 20th, 2012 at 10:27 AM
Miggy hits dingers and has a ring. The people love dingers. And Miggy has a ring. That’s all that matters.
/RIIIIIIIIIINNNNNNGS
//DIIIIIIIIINNNNNGGGEEEEEEERS
September 20th, 2012 at 10:27 AM
The fewer PA absolutely should count against Trout, and they do. But WAR is a counting stat, not per PA. It is reflected, and the gap is still very wide.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:27 AM
shhhh..i try to provide any flimsy argument against Jeter.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:27 AM
Pudge Rodriguez led the league in GIDPs (had more GIDPs than BBs) the year he won MVP. For some reason that era of Texas Rangers produced a bunch of horrible MVP choices.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:28 AM
If I were a betting woman, I wouldn’t put money on Trout winning.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:28 AM
OK. But if you put Trout third or fourth, is he going to drive in those runs? He’s going to be seeing different pitches, too, and likely get less ABs per game.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:28 AM
it would be foolish of them since the precedent was set with Fred Lynn in the 70s.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:29 AM
As long as Buck wins manager of the year, who cares?
This
Hell, I go to games with my dad and while he’s definitely more old-school leaning he knows (and appreciates) new-school statistics.
And this. My dad is an Earl Weaver-worshipping old school guy but understands WAR and appreciates sabermetrics and how they can give you a different look at the game.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:29 AM
Unless Bourjos can improve his BA by a lot, no chance.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:29 AM
People who complain about stats are the ones who think the Richter Scale is how we measure seismic events. Real salt of the earth people.
Steroids.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:29 AM
Leyland is a liar. If the Angels called up the Tigers this morning and said, “We’ll give you Mike Trout for Cabrera,” the Tigers would accept the deal in a quicker time period than it’s taken me to type this comment.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:30 AM
Just saying this because I am still bitter about how dismissive writers here are about baseball, but isn’t it odd that most baseball posts get this many comments? Is it just the regulars that keep these posts going or could there actually be people who don’t comment here that like baseball and would welcome more posts regarding this sport?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:30 AM
I can tell you (eyeball test!!!!) that the majority of his GIDPs are pissrods hit at the 3B or SS. If they were hit a foot or two to the right or left of the defender, that’s another hit because even the rangiest defenders will struggle to get to them because of their speed.
yeah exactly. In the 90′s Manny Ramirez and Belle constantly were near the tops in GIDP and it was exactly that. I’d never think of discounting a player based on GIDP unless he was constantly loafing.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:30 AM
No angry divide here. I appreciate the new type of stats and it’s interesting to hear them. I’m obviously a Tigers and Cabrera fan and as someone who’s seen him play a ton this year, I feel he’s incredibly valuable and the league MVP. But I’m not going to punch a child if Trout wins.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:30 AM
very true. nobody would argue that
September 20th, 2012 at 10:31 AM
Trout and 5 cartons of Marlboros for Cabrera
September 20th, 2012 at 10:31 AM
All I know is that Teddy Ballgame got robbed in ’41.
Williams WAR: 10.1
DiMaggio WAR: 8.6
September 20th, 2012 at 10:31 AM
No, the Tigers are a stupid organization.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:31 AM
THIS, ALL DAY EVERY DAY
September 20th, 2012 at 10:31 AM
Anyone know the odds on this? I’ll try to check if my online book has any listed.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:32 AM
Leyland is a liar. If the Angels called up the Tigers this morning and said, “We’ll give you Mike Trout for Cabrera,” the Tigers would accept the deal in a quicker time period than it’s taken me to type this comment.
+1 case of scotch to seal the deal
September 20th, 2012 at 10:32 AM
Perhaps the idea of the Triple Crown itself is archaic?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:32 AM
Baseball fans often confuse statistical oddities or rare occurrences with feats of greatness. For example people make a big deal about “the cycle” even though a 3 HR, 1 single game would be much more valuable. Same thing with the triple crown – it hasnt happened since Yaz so it’s a huge deal. Likewise a no-hitter with 7 walks isnt a better game than a one-hitter with no walks, but baseball fans treat the former as more of an accomplishment.
/wet blanket
September 20th, 2012 at 10:32 AM
I mean from a scouting standpoint, regardless of anyone else on the roster. He has a ton of speed now but he’s also only 20 and built like a linebacker and (though it’s just an educated guess) i am assuming he will bulk up and keep growing
September 20th, 2012 at 10:32 AM
Prince Fielder for Mike Trout. Right now. Do it.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:32 AM
TBL has written much, much worse than this. I actually didn’t hate it. Well, except the trolling for comments.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:33 AM
yes
September 20th, 2012 at 10:34 AM
Prince Fielder for Nutrisystem
/said by noone
September 20th, 2012 at 10:34 AM
You’re right about that, except, I think, the part about Leyland being a liar. Based on everything we know about the guy, I’m sure he believes it.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:34 AM
I’d guess most people couldn’t because usually you’re not very good at communicating that kind of stuff.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:35 AM
Neal Huntington has a Masters but hasn’t fired Hurdle yet so …. value of grad school is plummeting.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:35 AM
WAR don’t lie. But if Miggy wins the Triple Crown, it’d be hard to argue against him for historical reasons.
THIS. I’m all about using advanced metrics and looking for other stats to help determine the MVP, but if a guy does something that hasn’t been done in more than 4 decades…
[Ed. GOODNESS PEOPLE, can you not see this is a joke???????]
/sees banhammer in the corner
//doesn’t say shit
September 20th, 2012 at 10:35 AM
Especially when you consider HR and RBI are basically overlapping skills. Leading the league in BA and AVG in the same year is almost as rare as the triple crown itself.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:35 AM
Leyland is a liar. If the Angels called up the Tigers this morning and said, “We’ll give you Mike Trout for Cabrera,” the Tigers would accept the deal in a quicker time period than it’s taken me to type this comment
I would poop my pants with this decision. Wouldn’t be that easy
September 20th, 2012 at 10:35 AM
In fact I think Trout will have to move to a corner sooner rather than later.
Why would the Angels move the best player at his position right now, position that is in the middle of the field and is built around? No way he is moved to another position.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:36 AM
i think leadoff hitter is such a different spot in the lineup there ought to be an award for it
September 20th, 2012 at 10:36 AM
Except for the Tigers’ front office.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:37 AM
This won’t be remembered as a battle over
slaverythe MVP award, but as one ofstates’ rightsTHE ANGRY DIVIDE.September 20th, 2012 at 10:37 AM
i’m not saying he is moving tomorrow or next year, just by the time he is 25
September 20th, 2012 at 10:39 AM
Less so in the AL than NL, where you’re behind the pitcher.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:40 AM
i think leadoff hitter is such a different spot in the lineup there ought to be an award for
So true. Most important.
/Co-signs the petition for this
September 20th, 2012 at 10:41 AM
Trout can play center til he’s 30.
/team don’t shut down Strasburg for the season
September 20th, 2012 at 10:43 AM
/team don’t shut down Strasburg for the season
/team doesn’t understand why Stras wasn’t skipping starts in July, August & September so he could pitch in October and still stay under his “innings limit”
September 20th, 2012 at 10:44 AM
Pick your framework for an MVP. If you think winning is important, overweight it. If you think BA w/ RISP is important, overweight it. If you think steals are not important, underweight them.
Once you’re done with that, then let the framework determine your MVP. If it’s Miggy, great.
But next year, don’t shoehorn whatever framework it takes to make Miggy or another favorite player the MVP again.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:44 AM
Irony.
McTibble strikes again.
I do think Trout will probably win, but making the post-season may be the difference in the vote (fair or not). When I said Trout for MVP a few months ago (and wasn’t the only one) it was largely because he rejuvenated a team, changed them from losing to winning nearly overnight, and appeared to really help Pujols’ hitting by being in the lineup. Most of the reaction was ‘lets see him do it for a year’. Well he has still been great, but not “hands down best player in the league”-great, the last month. He’s hit .247 as the Angels have slumped again, and fallen back in the WC race.
If Cabrera wins the Triple Crown OR gets to the playoffs, I would have no problem with him winning MVP, whatever the WAR (inc defense) says.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:44 AM
It was intended that way, but nobody seemed to pick it up, so I added a YES I WAS JOKING PEOPLE
September 20th, 2012 at 10:44 AM
I hope Trout breaks down in a couple years. Then keeps coming back and stealing money and getting injured then taking more money.
/Damn you Grady Sizemore
September 20th, 2012 at 10:46 AM
Smells like garlic and indignation in here.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:46 AM
this shouldn’t even be an issue, it’s the right move IF the IP/accumulated stress on elbow/effectiveness all point to it
this is the issue.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:48 AM
I get that. I feel like it should still be a subjective award, as opposed to the “whoever leads the league in WAR” award. Chipper Jones didnt even have the highest WAR among guys named Jones on his own team the year he won MVP, but he completely dominated in the 2nd half that year.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:48 AM
So will the Red Sox. It hardly merits consideration for MVP.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:49 AM
The way that Jason keeps saying that this “was a joke” reminds me of the way that Marcus keeps apologizing for Willie’s cursing in Bad Santa.
/”He’s not going to say fuckstick in front of the children, is he?”
September 20th, 2012 at 10:49 AM
WAR is a framework.
Hitting + defense + baserunning.
You can overweight/underweight each of those 3 categories and come up with your own numbers.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:51 AM
Sounds like a lot of work.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:51 AM
Call it a WOD, and knock it out in 37 minutes.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:52 AM
Couldn’t agree more. I go by feel, who had the most impact, etc. I’m okay with Pedroia winning MVP when there’s no clear ‘stats’ winner, and he leads his team to the playoffs. I’m okay with Alex Rodriguez winning it on a losing team, if his stats are so superior to everyone else (though Rick Reilly’s “DH” vs “playing the field” argument can go fuck itself”. I’m even okay with a SP winning it, if he is clearly the reason they are above .500, and he has an impact on the bullpen for the days he doesn’t pitch – often bypassed in the Verlander discussion, and I’d never vote for a SP for MVP who doesn’t pile up innings.
The only reason I can’t get behind Verlander for MVP is because Pedro got fucked out of it by a NY writer who wouldn’t vote for a pitcher, the year after voting for Rick Helling.
/fuck George King
//sorry I missed this post
September 20th, 2012 at 10:52 AM
The Splendid Splinter also finished second in the MVP voting to the Yankee Clipper in 1941, when all Williams did was hit .401 for the season.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:53 AM
/just for the hell of it
September 20th, 2012 at 10:55 AM
Joe DiMaggio hit .409 in his hitting streak. Williams hit .406 for the entire year (not .401)
September 20th, 2012 at 10:55 AM
Want to hear about yesterday’s WOD?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:56 AM
Let’s hear about it.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:56 AM
And I know the stats have diminished in importance, but I still think Cabrera winning the Triple Crown would be an awesome feat.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:57 AM
Quite a year.
While DiMag may have been overappreciated in his time compared to the Splintah, I feel like the pendulum has swung too far in the other direction, especially considering how much Yankee Stadium hurt a right handed pull hitter and how much Fenway helps any hitter.
/Sox fan and Yankee hater.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:57 AM
Sure. I’m bored. Main site or local box WOD?
September 20th, 2012 at 10:58 AM
*BAT SIGNAL TO TIM RYAN, JASON LISK*
i said in our email exchange around 8 am … 200 comments, easy.
Jim Leyland, love you, man.
September 20th, 2012 at 10:59 AM
Heaven forbid you took the time to write a good baseball post instead of writing a shitty one just to troll and get a lot of comments. Good job good effort, Skip Bayless
September 20th, 2012 at 10:59 AM
5 Handstand pushups
10 Cleans
30 Squats (bodyweight)
AMRAP (as many rounds as possible) in 15:00.
Killed my shoulders. I’m one of the heaviest guys in my affiliate.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:00 AM
To stop those monsters 1-2-3,
Here’s a fresh new way that’s trouble-free,
It’s got Paul Anka’s guarantee…
Guarantee void in Tennessee.
Just don’t look! Just don’t look!
Just don’t look! Just don’t look!
Just don’t look! Just don’t look!
September 20th, 2012 at 11:00 AM
just by the time he is 25
Add about 5 to 6 years on that number.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:01 AM
Also the Bat Signal is used for when a crime is committed, not when someone wants to be a gloating dick.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:02 AM
Usually guys can bust a wod in about 37 seconds, no?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:02 AM
/lights cigarette
September 20th, 2012 at 11:02 AM
Is this really true for a LH like Williams? I’m sure he got a few cheapies around the RF pole, but the park plays pretty true for lefties, and has a deep RCF.
.652 home vs. .615 away slugging percentage, so not extreme. It hurt him with HRs (more away than home, in fewer games), it just got him a ton more doubles off the monster (319 home, 206 away).
By comparison: Cody Ross (a RH pull-hitter) is slugging .595 at Fenway, and .394 away.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:03 AM
Is there going to be another post today when Scioscia and Weaver refute Leyland and Verlander says Trout is the MVP. A post with a team manager and pitcher providing the opinion isn’t going out on a limb.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:03 AM
Usually guys can bust a wod in about 37 seconds, no?
28 if I’m in a hurry.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:04 AM
It took me months. And, another commenter (don’t remember who) was kind enough to break down each writer’s style up in here.
Once I broke the code, I love this place even more.
I totally agree with comment 99 – what else would a teammate say, actually? It’s not about stats, it’s about the clubhouse.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:05 AM
20 if it’s late, and we know our son is going to wake us up early.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:06 AM
I’ve adopted the convict conditioning workout. It’s all bodyweight exercises. On week 8. Loving it so far.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:07 AM
Dammit it, I jumbled his BA up with Yaz’s when Yaz won the batting title by hitting .301 in 1968. FML.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:08 AM
fatass
/miggie’d
September 20th, 2012 at 11:08 AM
‘
in conversations among the writers of this site, Some Random Old Dude is continually voted Most Favorite Commenter. never takes anything too seriously, never gets too angry
September 20th, 2012 at 11:09 AM
Joe would make you a delicious cup of Mr. Coffee brew, while Ted would just spit in your cup out of spite.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:09 AM
in conversations among the writers of this site, Some Random Old Dude is continually voted Most Favorite Commenter. never takes anything too seriously, never gets too angry
If I was retired and pulling a military pension while writing novels all day and trying to think of ways to pick up ladies half my age, I’d be in a good mood all the time too.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:09 AM
that’s because SROD is old and just doesn’t give a damn
September 20th, 2012 at 11:10 AM
agreed old people are non threatining and adorably out of touch.
/high fives SROD
September 20th, 2012 at 11:11 AM
the beauty is that 90% people GET this post … and then you have a small portion of guys, like SC, who take it seriously and try to make some grand statement and want to quit the site.
sigh.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:11 AM
SROD® is the only commenter so popular that he had to register his name under trademark laws.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:12 AM
Not surprising. He’s well liked by the commenters also, I’m sure.
Who’s the least favorite?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:12 AM
in conversations among the writers of this site, Some Random Old Dude is continually voted Most Favorite Commenter. never takes anything too seriously, never gets too angry
Yeah…..but what is SROD’s WAR?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:13 AM
Isn’t that why the Internet gods handed you down the banhammer?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:13 AM
Cabrera’s September vs. Trout’s should put Miggy over the top.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:13 AM
Where is ddmcd1974 when you need him?!
September 20th, 2012 at 11:13 AM
If you can’t find the humor in my comments, my humor needs work.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:14 AM
I have to say… I’ve come to accept that Jason does a job. He gets paid for it. He maximizes his revenue. I really hope that what he writes doesn’t necessarily reflect his beliefs on sports.
We know you need pageviews, and trolling is part of that, but if you could tone down logical fallacies and factual inaccuracies, I think it’s those that really get people here annoyed.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:15 AM
Back in prison, probably.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:15 AM
agreed old people are non threatining and adorably out of touch.
/high fives SROD
“Although slow and dangerous behind the wheel, I guess they can still serve a purpose…Don’t you go dying on me now!”
September 20th, 2012 at 11:16 AM
September 20th, 2012 at 11:16 AM
*sneaks out side door*
September 20th, 2012 at 11:16 AM
I think that has something to do with him being the only Nats fan in existence. People feel kindly toward old people, kids, cute animals and delusional baseball fans.
/ SROD won’t ever see this, as he’s off chasing around after Toto in Europe while thinking it’s 1983
September 20th, 2012 at 11:16 AM
@WWOS
Williams career road OPS is 1.082. DiMag’s career road OPS is 1.015.
I’m not arguing that Williams wasn’t “the greatest hitter who ever lived”, just that the modern day perception that DiMaggio was WAY beneath him is false.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:16 AM
Baseball fans often confuse statistical oddities or rare occurrences with feats of greatness. For example people make a big deal about “the cycle” even though a 3 HR, 1 single game would be much more valuable. Same thing with the triple crown – it hasnt happened since Yaz so it’s a huge deal. Likewise a no-hitter with 7 walks isnt a better game than a one-hitter with no walks, but baseball fans treat the former as more of an accomplishment.
/wet blanket
cool. did you know there was a guy in the minors in the late 80s who hit a HR cycle in a game? Tyrone Horne
solo, 2-run, 3-run and grannie
September 20th, 2012 at 11:17 AM
I think you’re safe, I don’t think Trey is officially banned.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:17 AM
I think that’s pretty long list (not to mention lame and unfunny), and they’re all ranked #1
September 20th, 2012 at 11:18 AM
It’s the internet and commenting. I’m not sure ‘beauty’ is the right term. You aren’t a journalist, and we aren’t consuming ‘news’ and redefining the great debates of our days. You’re writing gossip/relaying stories with as much dramatic spin on it as you can. We’re talking about it for 20 minutes before changing the subject to whatever idiotic shit we want to talk about, that our real friends won’t engage us in.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:18 AM
ha. Hernia hates Trey.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:18 AM
I’m Henery the Eighth, I am
Henery the Eighth, I am, I am
I got married to the widow next door
She’s been married seven times or more
And every one was an Henery (Henery!)
Never was a Willy or a Sam (no Sam!)
I’m her eighth old man, I’m Henery
Henery the Eighty, I am
/second verse, same as the first’d
September 20th, 2012 at 11:19 AM
Dong blog.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:19 AM
/closes browser
September 20th, 2012 at 11:19 AM
What’s this now?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:20 AM
So…uh, who ya got in the Tour Championship? Rory, Tiger?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:20 AM
Did they play that at your senior prom?
/ Snark’d
September 20th, 2012 at 11:20 AM
As a baseball player, possibly. Williams was not a particularly elegant fielder, IIRC.
I think it’s swung the other way as far as personalities though. Williams was a weird duck at times, but at heart a good guy. The similarities of Manny and Williams probably abound, in a crazy sort of way. There are a lot of “Joe D is an asshole” stories.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:21 AM
It’s all bodyweight exercises
I agree with this. I also agree that black coffee is a sweet sweet nectar that I enjoy immensely.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:21 AM
personally i got kuchar just cuz ive burned up the rest of the top 30 already.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:22 AM
/high fives SROD
/high fives spencer, nada, Vez, HVC
//fist-bumps J-Mac
///goes back to TCM
////Sophia Loren day – “Salma Hayek” for us old guys
September 20th, 2012 at 11:22 AM
I really hope that what he writes doesn’t necessarily reflect his beliefs on sports.
He admitted as much when he came back and tried to pass this off as a joke. What is irritating about that is that he is virtually admitting to trolling via post. What is in turn irritating about that is that I’d like to think that Jason as a writer and journalist is better than that. You can write posts that are funny to prove a point. But writing a post purely for the enjoyment of seeing comments–and page clicks–add up isn’t journalism. If this post was written as a joke then what point was it trying to prove? That shitting on logic and misusing statistics drives comments? If so, then bravo, I guess.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:23 AM
The triple crown is way more legit than the cycle. It’s pretty tough to lead the league in HR and batting average and not be a top 3 player in the league. In fact, I’ll make a bet… find me a player who led in both and WASN’T top 3 in WAR in his league.
If you lead the league in cycles or grand slams, it may not mean anything. You lead the league in BA and HRs, you can probably impute a pretty decent WAR from it.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:24 AM
////Sophia Loren day – “Salma Hayek” for us old guys
raquel welch and ursula andress would do the trick
September 20th, 2012 at 11:24 AM
Yeah, I recently read Cramer’s excellent biography about Joe D. which brought to light many of those negatives.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:25 AM
i imagine my comments driving in a sexy ambulance.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:25 AM
My WAR? Just Cause, of course. Or, that DESERT STORM thing.
/rimshot
September 20th, 2012 at 11:25 AM
Both call to mind this passage from Roethke:
I knew a woman, lovely in her bones,
When small birds sighed, she would sigh back at them;
Ah, when she moved, she moved more ways than one:
The shapes a bright container can contain!
September 20th, 2012 at 11:26 AM
i imagine my comments driving in a sexy ambulance.
A sexy ambulance filled with weed.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:26 AM
While cranking on the chronic.
/ Mother Juggs and Speed’d
September 20th, 2012 at 11:26 AM
cool. did you know there was a guy in the minors in the late 80s who hit a HR cycle in a game? Tyrone Horne… solo, 2-run, 3-run and grannie
>killing bin laden
September 20th, 2012 at 11:26 AM
ms, why is it annoying? what’s the percentage of why you come here, with a commenter/banter-post split?
so, 80% for commenter/banter, 20 for fascinating post, for example
breathe deeply man. i worry about you
September 20th, 2012 at 11:26 AM
i imagine SROD crying to richard crenna “IT’S NOT MY WARRRR!!!” right now.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:26 AM
That’s the rest of my point. He’s not a journalist. Nothing he does has a semblance of fair reporting. It’s all slanted to page views and controversy/drama/interest. I stopped coming here for a while because I just got so annoyed at the posts, and when I stopped expecting journalism, and lowered my expectations to what I expect from most non-journalist internet sports commentary, I came to be fine with things like “2nd ex-Yankee to test positive for PEDs” (to expand to include everyone here).
September 20th, 2012 at 11:27 AM
My WAR? Just Cause, of course. Or, that DESERT STORM thing.
Is Panama nice in the winter?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:27 AM
hey man, slow down, this ambulance is going too fast.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:27 AM
ms, why is it annoying?
It’s manipulative writing. Do I really need to explain what is wrong with that?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:27 AM
Well, I guess 23 is old because I’ve had a thing for Ms Sophia going on a decade. Wish more women would aspire for that body typ.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:28 AM
I’ll put that on my list. I’ve only read the Ted Williams one.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:28 AM
You have Kuchar winning the Tour Championship, what about Fed Ex.
For some reason I think Tiger is going to put together 4 really good rounds and walk away with both Tour and Fed Ex. Laugh at Phil and tell Rory “you’re not me yet.”
September 20th, 2012 at 11:28 AM
That’s the rest of my point. He’s not a journalist. Nothing he does has a semblance of fair reporting. It’s all slanted to page views and controversy/drama/interest. I stopped coming here for a while because I just got so annoyed at the posts, and when I stopped expecting journalism, and lowered my expectations to what I expect from most non-journalist internet sports commentary, I came to be fine with things like “2nd ex-Yankee to test positive for PEDs” (to expand to include everyone here).
I guess it’s my fault for having high expectations of someone who used to write for major news outlets and magazines.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:29 AM
oh, the whole fedex? i like rors, unfortunately.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:29 AM
Don’t really understand the Triple Crown hate. Those diminishing it I think have lost a little touch with just how hard it is to complete. Sadly, even if he does accomplish the TC, it won’t be lauded because of Trout and his incredible year.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:30 AM
Pfft. I was on the curb outside the venue by 9p. Don’t know what the hell they played.
I went with the girlfriend of the drummer of the band who played. She spend the night staring at him. What was I thinking?
Maybe they played “Hold the Line”…
September 20th, 2012 at 11:30 AM
He has that war vet puppet like Hader on SNL.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:31 AM
Yep. Just stay out of the jungle. Crew dogs don’t know how to behave in Central America, though.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:32 AM
Marilyn could have told us the truth, but Bobby Kennedy had her snuffed.
/ Pablo Picasso was never an asshole
September 20th, 2012 at 11:32 AM
Look at my comment above. Find anyone who wasn’t top 3 in war in a league who won a triple crown.
And since it would be idiotic to just hand the MVP to the top WAR (especially since WAR can be manipulated as well), anyone in the top 3 or 5 or whatever in WAR should be able to win the MVP without a ton of controversy.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:33 AM
Well, love isn’t always on time.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:33 AM
For instance… Yaz won the triple crown in 1967 with “only” a .301 batting average.
Here was the WAR leaderboard that year:
1. Yastrzemski (BOS) 12.0
2. Santo (CHC) 9.6
3. Clemente (PIT) 8.7
4. Aaron (ATL) 8.4
5. Robinson (BAL) 7.3
6. Kaline (DET) 7.2
7. Cepeda (STL) 6.6
8. Blair (BAL) 6.4
9. Killebrew (MIN) 6.0
10. Phillips (CHC) 5.8
McCarver (STL) 5.8
/yep, THAT McCarver
September 20th, 2012 at 11:35 AM
You were an officer, right? Did you start off as an officer, or work from enlisted? You ever feel like you had issues because of your race?
/I think you are black
//really doesn’t know anyone’s races here
September 20th, 2012 at 11:35 AM
/yep, THAT McCarver
He’s the MVP or WAR leader of worst broadcaster ever.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:35 AM
Careful, straw men can be flammable
September 20th, 2012 at 11:36 AM
Those names bring back great memories. My homie McCarver was pretty fast for a catcher back in the day.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:36 AM
Hell, I used to write for major news outlets, and I have absolutely zero expectations of myself.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:36 AM
SROD is indeed a black man.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:36 AM
1. Yastrzemski (BOS) 12.0
2. Santo (CHC) 9.6
3. Clemente (PIT) 8.7
4. Aaron (ATL) 8.4
5. Robinson (BAL) 7.3
6. Kaline (DET) 7.2
7. Cepeda (STL) 6.6
8. Blair (BAL) 6.4
9. Killebrew (MIN) 6.0
10. Phillips (CHC) 5.8
McCarver (STL) 5.8
2 O’s in the top 8?
And here I thought all that franchise was known for was Billy Ripken’s baseball card and Brady Andersen’s 50 HR season.
/yesterday’d
September 20th, 2012 at 11:37 AM
breaking: in 2014, MLB announces it will rename the MVP award, “Highest WAR wins”
September 20th, 2012 at 11:37 AM
SROD® is black?!?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:37 AM
Hell, I used to write for major news outlets, and I have absolutely zero expectations of myself.
You also don’t write for a blog that used to have “Stubbornly Uncorrupted and Unbeholden” on its banner.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:40 AM
It’s manipulative writing. Do I really need to explain what is wrong with that?
no, but i’m asking why you care if it’s manipulative writing, or bad writing, or incorrect, or whatever mistakes. do you come here for the posts or the commenter banter/learn from other commenters (i’d say 99% for me is the latter)?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:40 AM
breaking: in 2014, MLB announces it will rename the MVP award, “Highest WAR wins” and have a skills competition to determine close MVP races
/Bud Selig, probably
September 20th, 2012 at 11:40 AM
I’m the whitest dude in America
September 20th, 2012 at 11:41 AM
I’m from Louisiana. My banner would proclaim “Completely Corrupted and Totally Beholden.”
September 20th, 2012 at 11:41 AM
Mullet is white?!?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:42 AM
I’m all this, and I grew up in New England.
/game, set, match
September 20th, 2012 at 11:42 AM
Also, I think it’s a banner day when a baseball post surges past the Roundup in comments.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:43 AM
Don’t really understand the Triple Crown hate.
Look at my comment above. Find anyone who wasn’t top 3 in war in a league who won a triple crown.
And since it would be idiotic to just hand the MVP to the top WAR (especially since WAR can be manipulated as well), anyone in the top 3 or 5 or whatever in WAR should be able to win the MVP without a ton of controversy.
you know, i bet it’s sweet to just be known as the TC winner, regardless of other ‘awards’
September 20th, 2012 at 11:43 AM
yup, and I live in……. ALABAMA
September 20th, 2012 at 11:44 AM
Also, I think it’s a banhammer day when a baseball post surges past the Roundup in comments.
/fixed
September 20th, 2012 at 11:44 AM
Officer from the start. OTS guy (“90-day wonder”, as we were called).
No real issues, but humorous moments. For one, there was a Pontiac dealership near my first base (Altus AFB, OK). One day, I went car-shopping in civvies, and the salesman thought I was a young airman. Kinda left me hanging, like I was young enlisted who couldn’t afford their product.
Went in a few days later during lunch break in a green bag (flight suit), and the same guy was jumping thru his butt trying to impress me (in order to close a sale). He never put two and two together to remember I was the same guy he disregarded earlier in the week.
That and other situations are the genesis of my “go-by” here. In a bag or blues, I was noticed (because of rank/flying status – not a whole lot of black aviators in the USAF).
Now, where’er I go, I am just “some random old dude”, milling about.
/Now you know…the REST of the story.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:45 AM
Also, I think it’s a banhammer day when a baseball post surges past the Roundup in comments.
fuck me
September 20th, 2012 at 11:46 AM
I guess it’s my fault for having high expectations of someone who used to write for major news outlets and magazines.
cmon now, this is disingenuous. of all the criticism there is about columnists who write for major outlets, why would you assume or expect anyone affiliated with a big name media outlet to automatically be good? you;re better than that
September 20th, 2012 at 11:46 AM
That made me laugh
September 20th, 2012 at 11:47 AM
I’m Black, but for Internet purposes I’m Puerto Rican.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:48 AM
Isn’t he eating pizza with the EIC?
September 20th, 2012 at 11:48 AM
I got sucked in to reading parts of this, and most of the comments.
I agree with JMac that he isn’t funny.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:49 AM
Thanks for sharing. Not sure if I mentioned this when you were around, but I’m going to be running around your old stomping grounds (literally). Running the St Jude Half Marathon in Memphis in december. Looking forward to some music and BBQ.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:49 AM
Giving the MVP to the person that had the best statistical season shouldn’t spark much controversy. Plus, it would be better than relying on a writer that is asked to watch and digest 30 teams playing 162 games a piece.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:51 AM
I feel like this was supposed to be your Pretty Woman moment.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:52 AM
no, but i’m asking why you care if it’s manipulative writing, or bad writing, or incorrect, or whatever mistakes. do you come here for the posts or the commenter banter/learn from other commenters (i’d say 99% for me is the latter)?
I come here for both. And Jason, back in the day when he kept having to buy space a new server each month and the color motif around here was green, didn’t rely upon manipulative writing. He did interviews, he did a degree of analysis. And when we disagreed with him he engaged in debate with those who did. Nowadays it seems that all he has time for is to drop in and be patronizing.
As I mentioned previously, perhaps it’s my fault for having standards in the first place. But when the posts are good, thoughtful comments generally follow. This was the attraction to this place for me and many other commenters. We didn’t devolve into Deadspin style one-upmanship where everyone fell in love with the sound of their own typing. I come here now for the posts by Lisk and Tim. I thought Jason was on to something with his look at UNC athletics and I wish he would emphasize that more.
But with posts like this, there is little thoughtful discussion. Predictably the comment section exploded into people throwing statistics at Jason and Jason dismissively that we didn’t “get the post”. It’s the equivalent of watching talking heads on CNN or Fox or wherever. Points are not articulated, rather facts are spewed out by themselves and the response is to patronize and act deliberately bemused.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:53 AM
cmon now, this is disingenuous. of all the criticism there is about columnists who write for major outlets, why would you assume or expect anyone affiliated with a big name media outlet to automatically be good? you;re better than that
It’s not disingenuous. You, who have mastered the art of using the Internet Way Back Machine, know that this place used to be better than that.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:54 AM
Agreed, with the rather LARGE assumption that WAR actually measures what it is supposed to (wins above replacement), giving the MVP award to the player that contributes the most wins to his team just makes sense.
It’s not basketball or football, where your statistics can be greatly affected by having a center who commands a double team, a point guard who gets you the ball or an offensive line that is top notch.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:55 AM
Ok I’m done bloviating now.
September 20th, 2012 at 11:56 AM
breaking: in 2014, title of Home Run king will be given to player who hits most home runs.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:00 PM
this is bullshit and you know it.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:07 PM
If Keith Law couldn’t comment on here and provide a good argument as to why WAR reigns supreme, I wouldn’t expect any of the statheads on here to.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:08 PM
It’s not disingenuous. You, who have mastered the art of using the Internet Way Back Machine, know that this place used to be better than that.
i was just responding to your reference to folks who write for big time outlets being automatically reliable becuase of that affiliation. i agree the place is different, as is eic, but it since 08 when i started coming here, it’s always been about the comment section
personal peccadiloes is all this is
September 20th, 2012 at 12:09 PM
That’s a great cause. Hopefully the weather will hold out (no freezing rain).
I still owe you and miz a round someday soon. We can finish our Strasburg argument then. I may get back to Mempho after New Year’s Day.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:11 PM
Pretend it is: would you rather give the MVP to a player with 8 WAR whose team wins their division by 2 games, or a player with 10 wins, whose team finishes in last?
Or what about Trout, who is slumping down the stretch (though without him, they wouldn’t be in the race anyway). I can’t figure out if “a win is a win whenever you get it” is valid… I feel like momentum exists.
I guess my point is that if you are valuing wins so much, just give the MVP to the pitcher with the most Ws and be done with it.
/runs
September 20th, 2012 at 12:13 PM
And ms621… you have a valid point. For my time here though, most of the writing was always derivative and disingenuous, so I don’t have the same basis of comparison.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:14 PM
Wow, this thing has gone insane. What, no one has work today? It’s Trout in a mile. I know TBL is known to troll on baseball issues, but even I could see the obvious humor in this post.
This isn’t a stats v. old school thinking thing. Every scout knows that a player who plays good D in CF is much more valuable than a fat whale of a 3B who couldn’t catch a cold. This isn’t close. Trout for MVP.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:18 PM
I’m sure I’m in the minority, but yes, I’d rather give the MVP to the guy with the 10 WAR than the 8. (in a perfect world where WAR was ridiculously accurate, back-tested, etc.) I don’t currently have much confidence in the defensive component of WAR.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:18 PM
This was the argument people made up here for Bautista last year, basically negating the value of performing in a pennant race in the process.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:19 PM
13 errors in over 350 chances is not horrible. It aint great, but moving to a position he hadn’t played in a long time I’ll live with 13 errors. Especially if yo can prove that those errors did not directly contribute to games lost.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:20 PM
jbriaz: does team success matter at all to you for MVP?
Are you willing to acknowledge it is okay for it to matter to others?
I think team success will factor into the voting more than defense. And if you have the understanding of WAR to explain to me exactly how much more valuable Trout’s defense is, please let me know. If you are just going by WAR, that’s fine, but just say so.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:22 PM
Fair enough, there’s no way to argue with that.
“Last place” is certainly different from “pennant race”. Without Trout, the Angels would have been out of it by July, so I don’t think getting into the playoffs will be the only measure of team success.
Unfortunately for him, and for the Angels, he picked a bad month to have normal rookie struggles.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
I like MVP being subjective. I’m really okay with either. Kind of like what Nick said… just be honest to yourself about what matters, and don’t try to skew that to fit a narrative.
I do think the Triple Crown, while slightly antiquated, is pretty special.
Just an FYI, for offensive WAR only, Trout = 7.8, Cabrera = 7.2. Most arguments seem to keep coming back to Trout, no matter how you slice it. If I was a voter though, I’d prefer to see a nice couple of weeks to end the season though.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Ryan Braun has 12 more home runs than Prince Fielder this year.
That’s all I would like to add to this conversation.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
Using errors to make any kind of argument invalidates it completely. Errors are subjective and can be made on the whim of a scorer. sorry, I’ll trust my eyeballs and the defensive stats.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
@Wide Word of Sport
Team success does not matter to me. I don’t think it should matter to anyone else, but in this case, does it even matter? Both the Tigers and Angels are currently set NOT to make the playoffs.
And yes, I do know that Trout is decimating the competition in WAR. I use it as a tool, not the end all be all. Especially considering that the inputs for bWar v. fWar on defense (i.e. UZR v. DRS) are suspect at best. So, I’m not relying on that. BUT, this is what I do know. If a CFer puts up commensurate offensive production (in whatever manner it may be) to a third baseman, the CFer is more valuable UNLESS the third basemen is top notch defensively and the CFer sucks at his respective position. This is NOT the case. I think even the most rational fan would acknowledge that Trout is good in CF and Cabrera sucks at 3B. Scout writers, including Klaw, Goldstein (before he left), Callis, and such will confirm that argument as well.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:33 PM
Kirk Gibson in ’88 and Terry Pendleton in ’91 are prime examples of MVPs who won not because of any stats but because of the perception that they elevated their teammates and their teams into the postseason.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:36 PM
jbriaz: everything you say makes perfect sense, and is perfectly legit. I’ve been on here pumping Trout for MVP all along, but I do think you need to make the other argument, if just to reinforce the case. Trout and Cabrera’s respective Septembers are leaving a little bit of a stale taste in my mouth though to ‘vote’ for Trout.
He is still ahead of Cabrera is just offensive WAR, so being qualitatively better defensively is enough, even you we don’t have good means to truly compare defensive value across positions.
Mantis – Cabrera has a 6.5 WAR and 7.2 Off-WAR. That bodes pretty badly for his defense.
I don’t think “Triple Crown” is enough to definitely win the MVP, but for anyone dismissing it as an indicator of elite performance, they are crazy, considering no one has ever sucked his way to one of them.
Everything keeps coming back to Trout, though. I’m just saying if Cabrera goes crazy, Trout sucks, and Det gets in while LAA stays home… the argument my guess is Cabrera wins.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:36 PM
“Can’t boot balls you don’t get to” remains my mantra on all things Tiger defense
September 20th, 2012 at 12:37 PM
@Nada
Fair enough, doesn’t mean I have to agree with that.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:37 PM
Pedroia won for that too, in a year where his great defense and really good offense stood out where no one had a crazy-good stat year, IIRC.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:42 PM
Wasn’t defending it, just pointing it out.
September 20th, 2012 at 12:46 PM
@Nada
Yeah, I know you were just pointing that out. Two guys who won the NL MVP, even though their teams didn’t make the playoffs (but still shouldn’t have won on performance alone): Dawson in 87 and Howard in 06
September 20th, 2012 at 12:46 PM
Using errors to make any kind of argument invalidates it completely
I was referring to the comment that atrocious defense should negate Cabrera altogether and was simply pointing out actual stats, not defending
September 20th, 2012 at 1:33 PM
Could you point out that 90%? Could you also explain what the point was? Also, could you explain the difference between what you perceive SC did and you banning people that disagree with you? I’m genuinely curious and not attempting to troll in any way.
September 20th, 2012 at 1:46 PM
Gibson won in 88 because half of the NY media hated Strawberry and waged an unofficial campaign for Kevin McReynolds, splitting the vote.
September 20th, 2012 at 1:53 PM
I see people talking about the good ole days on here as if there is a difference between then and now. TBL writes the same posts now as he did then. All you had to have been is on the Kobe side of the Kobe/LeBron argument 3 to 4 years ago to recognize this. People changed towards him once he made his big deal,which is often the case. He went from the proverbial basement poster to establishment in a flash.
September 20th, 2012 at 2:03 PM
I don’t know what happened in this thread, or how I missed this, this morning, but Trout >>>> All. Obviously I’m biased, but he turned the Angels entire season around.
September 20th, 2012 at 2:06 PM
Could you point out that 90%?
it’s the ones who view the page, and then don’t say anything. He counts that as an affirmation.
September 20th, 2012 at 2:39 PM
What about those of us who view the page but don’t count towards his pageviews? I’m guessing that we are the devil.
September 20th, 2012 at 2:45 PM
The key to enjoying this site, as has been said countless times, is lowered expectations.
There are sites for serious sports discussions, which aren’t hand to find using your favorite search engine.
This is the First Take of sports-related blogs. The sooner you embrace it, the happier you will be.
The trolling factor has gone up, so I am thinking of upgrading its credit rating to “McBayless Dong Blog”.
September 20th, 2012 at 2:49 PM
but he turned the Angels entire season around.
yes, now they will almost make the postseason