Vegas Bookmaker NCAA Bracket: Miami as a #3 Seed, Notre Dame and Butler as #13 Seeds
Todd Fuhrman has come out with a NCAA mock bracket based on Vegas power ratings for the teams (with ratings via @payneinsider). For those that follow a predictive system like Ken Pomeroy or look at the Sagarin ratings, most of this should not be surprising. There are a few variations, but most of the teams are in the same general range.
Still, it’s interesting to see where teams would be seeded if based only on Vegas’ view of the teams. Some of the more notable ones:
- Miami as a #3 seed, as the Hurricanes have climbed to 13-0 in the ACC;
- Arizona as a #5 seed. The Wildcats are 6-1 in games decided by 5 or less, but have lost 2 of the last 3;
- Iowa as a #7 seed, which will probably set Doug Gottlieb off;
- Butler as a #13 seed, though you be the one to bet against Brad Stevens. The Bulldogs are a couple of plays in prominent games (Indiana, Gonzaga, Marquette) from being considered a bubble team rather than a high seed;
- New Mexico as a #7 seed, who I have talked about enough;
- Notre Dame as a #13 seed, as the Irish are on the most schizophrenic list, with the 3 OT win against Louisville and at Pitt surrounded by two OT wins over DePaul and a blowout at Providence;
- Kansas State as a #9 seed, with 5 losses by average of 11.8 points;
- Middle Tennessee as a #5 seed, 23-4 with two losses in OT and another against Florida.
A question that we should ask is whether the Tournament should be seeded in a predictive fashion or based on what experts responsible for setting competent lines on the game think is appropriate. Teams win close games, injuries happen, big victories can weigh on us. If we just go by this, of course, then Butler’s win over Indiana is viewed as barely better than a close loss. Predictively, of course, this is true. I do think that wins and losses should be evaluated, and there should be some objective basis for getting seeded.
However, I don’t think the current RPI is very good at it, and the other thing that I would do, if I were king of the world, is balance a wins/losses approach (like what I did here to rank accomplishments against schedule), with an efficiency/predictive approach. Even if Miami earned a #1 seed by winning the ACC, and Indiana earned a #1 as well, while Florida fell to a #2 (because of close losses), I would certainly try to balance out the brackets by both measures and be more likely to put Florida with Miami than Indiana. Similarly, pairing New Mexico with a highly rated “efficiency” team would balance the bracket.
In other words, I would have no problem with an “accomplishment” approach so long as the regions were also balanced on efficiency and predictive measures as well as possible.
[photo via USA Today Sports Images]

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85 Responses to “Vegas Bookmaker NCAA Bracket: Miami as a #3 Seed, Notre Dame and Butler as #13 Seeds”
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February 21st, 2013 at 12:21 PM
This is blasphemous
February 21st, 2013 at 12:22 PM
In other words, I would have no problem with an “accomplishment” approach so long as the regions were also balanced on efficiency and predictive measures as well as possible.
Isn’t that what the committee tries to do already?
February 21st, 2013 at 12:23 PM
Usually at this point, I have a pretty good idea of who I’m going to take for my Final Four. I really have no idea right now. They second round is going to be mayhem.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:25 PM
The wins over Gonzaga and Indiana show that Butler wins close games against good competition. The whole notion that “They were one play away from losing” is ridiculous.
/
runs away crying
February 21st, 2013 at 12:27 PM
This is long, so I doubt anyone will read it, but it’s eye opening to say the least.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:31 PM
re-seed after every round, logistics be damned
February 21st, 2013 at 12:35 PM
5dimes has them at +500, 2nd lowest odds to win it all… horrible odds either way for a team that lost to Florida Gulf Coast by double digits.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:35 PM
http://guysamericankitchenandbar.com/
i am about to piss myself, this is so funny.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:38 PM
Husker, that belonged on your link dump site. Hurry up with that
February 21st, 2013 at 12:40 PM
Isn’t that what the committee tries to do already?
No. They try to reward “accomplishment” but clearly pay no attention to underlying efficiency, close game performance and predictive measures in balancing regions and groups. In fact, it often seems like the teams rated higher in Ken Pom and others are paired against each other.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:40 PM
Ha. My girlfriend sent me that thing and I didn’t even really read it. I just saw the item names and thought she was really sending me a Guy Fieri menu.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:41 PM
Read it this morning. This is why a single-payer system is long overdue.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:42 PM
I love how everyone’s using Miami’s “experience” as such a positive, without considering that A) None of these guys have ever played in the NCAA Tournament, and B) A team full of seniors is a team full of guys who werent good enough to go pro early.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:45 PM
I said this the other day: Miami could be the first top seed to lose to a 16. It would take a hell of an effort and the right matchup, but should the Canes get a 1 that’s as flawed a top seed as has ever existed in tournament history.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:45 PM
Last year the West was the “KenPom” region. Louisville was the 4 seed but by KenPom they were the 7th best team in the bracket (behind Florida, SLU, Memphis).
February 21st, 2013 at 12:45 PM
Those prices were mind boggling.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:46 PM
Well, vajayjay, the word “experience” is also connoting some additional physical maturation on the Miami roster. One of their guys is 26 years old. It’s like a team of 10th graders playing a team of 8th graders.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:47 PM
B) A team full of seniors is a team full of guys who werent good enough to go pro early.
but won’t they be playing teams full of guys not good enough to go pro? i get the ‘seniors’ designation, but otherwise we are talking teams who have freshman who are just fulfilling their one and done requirement
February 21st, 2013 at 12:50 PM
That game back in November, without their full line-up? Yes completely justifiable to dismiss them based on that.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:51 PM
I get that, but that’s a little simplified. Mid-majors start a lot of seniors, doesnt give them an advantage over power-conference schools. It’s not like Miami recruits on the same level as UNC, Kentucky, Indiana, etc.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:52 PM
I just hate Laranagga. His camps sucked when i was a kid. Only good thing was watching Antonio Daniels dunk.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:53 PM
Your point on A) is very valid. Your point on B0 doesn’t make much difference. We’ve seen senior teams make runs in the tourney before, and it has no difference if the players aren’t good enough to go pro.
He’ll be 26 when the season is over.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:54 PM
I bet UNC and Kentucky would kill to have Shane Larkin right now.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:55 PM
It’s not like Miami recruits on the same level as UNC, Kentucky, Indiana, etc.
What a weird inclusion to have UNC on there. Miami just beat them by 26
February 21st, 2013 at 12:55 PM
Hey, did you guys know Shane is Barry Larkins son?
February 21st, 2013 at 12:55 PM
I’m of two minds on this. My current job is a direct result of ACA, and I’m now working to help implement one of the state HC exchanges by the January 1 deadline. The more I get inside the system, the more I realize how many people truly need help, largely because HC costs are so damn expensive.
The other side of the coin is that while the ACA does a lot of great things, it doesn’t do nearly enough to address these absurd costs. One of the reasons drugs companies and hospitals were so willing to throw in money toward the bill is because they’re getting 30 million new patients to overcharge. It’s beyond obvious why nothing was done — $$$$$$ — but it’s disappointing that this issue was glossed over so completely.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:55 PM
Makes perfect sense to draw the conclusion that they would lose to a 16 based on this.
Most flawed top seed ever? If they win the ACC with dropping only one game? Maybe you should remember 1996 Purdue or Washington from the early 2000s before you throw around superlatives like that.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:56 PM
Hey, did you guys know Shane is Barry Larkins son?
I bet Daisy Fuentes wasn’t aware. You should tell her. .
February 21st, 2013 at 12:56 PM
I wonder if Chris Sabo’s kid wears Rex Specs?
February 21st, 2013 at 12:57 PM
I just hate Laranagga. His camps sucked when i was a kid
dude his scramble D is fucking legit.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:57 PM
Cleet – that wasnt me that said they would lose. I think they make Sweet 16 at a minimum.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:58 PM
I’m as dubious as anyone that Miami will get to Atlanta, but completely dismissing them and not expecting them to get to the 2nd Round is ridiculous.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:59 PM
Fair enough. They could easily make a run. You gotta admit though, they’re probably the weakest projected No. 1 seed in 20 years.
February 21st, 2013 at 12:59 PM
Especially given the landscape of CBB this year, the tourney is up for grabs.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:01 PM
I don’t have to admit this, because it isn’t true unless they drop 3-4 games going forward and get bounced of the first round of the ACC tourney.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:01 PM
Isn’t this two ways of expressing the same idea? A bigger line would indicate higher confidence straight up, no?
February 21st, 2013 at 1:02 PM
Those prices were mind boggling.
Not as mind boggling as this statement:
That’s a profit margin of 26% on revenue of $2.05 billion, an astounding result for such a service-intensive enterprise.
or this:
Ronald DePinho’s total compensation last year was $1,845,000. That does not count outside earnings derived from a much publicized waiver he received from the university that, according to the Houston Chronicle, allows him to maintain unspecified “financial ties with his three principal pharmaceutical companies.”
or this
That would mean Sloan-Kettering is billing more than $1,200 an hour for that nurse.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:04 PM
1996: Purdue was 26-6, almost lost to Western Carolina in the first round and then got bounced by Georgia.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:05 PM
I’ll try this another way: can you name a recent No. 1 team that appeared shakier than Miami?
Miami gets criticized fairly and unfairly. They have some really ugly offensive performances against bad teams that they managed to win, making their record probably a little better than it should be. On the other hand, Miami isnt taken seriously by many because they’re not a perennial power, which is absurd.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:05 PM
My kid smacked his head playing in an intramural football game.
On-field “EMT” said “Go to the ER”
He calls me, I say “If you’re not throwing up, not sleepy and not sensitive to light, put a butterfly on it.”
Mom says: “Go to the ER”.
$400 to put a butterfly on it.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:05 PM
/New NCAA Tourney math’d
February 21st, 2013 at 1:07 PM
The prices that hospitals charge compared to fair billing (if we use medicaid reimbursement as the fair billing standard) is almost singlehandely destroying the American healthcare system.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:08 PM
if we use medicaid reimbursement as the fair billing standard
And it shouldn’t be used b/c it’s really too low.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:09 PM
I wasnt completely dismissing them, I was making a point that they are a horrible pick from a value standpoint…
Also they lost to St Leo in an exhibition game…
February 21st, 2013 at 1:10 PM
Memphis in 2006 (pre-Derrick Rose), they only lost 3 games but everyone and their mother was doubting them in the tourney.
Refuse to acknowledge it.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:11 PM
The “better safe than sorry” line of thinking makes sense in many ways. After all, who wants to take chances with their health? That said, if people understood the costs of that decision – not just to their own wallets, but the true before-insurance costs – you’d see a mass revolt against insurance companies, hospitals, and drug manufacturers. We need to stop thinking of doctors and hospitals as anything other than businesses where profit is the top priority. Sucks, but its true.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:12 PM
Not sure I agree, but lets say that’s true and we increase it by 25 percent, a massive jump. That still saves BILLIONS of dollars a year.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:12 PM
Every team out there has had close calls where they wer fortunate enough to win. I can say the same thing about one of their losses. The offensive struggles at time is a concern, they are not a perfect team but especially this year in CBB no one else is close to being one either. And what is the constant in their close games? Touch defense, rebounding, and multiple players that can make a play for you as the clock is winding down; sounds like a good recipe for a team to me.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:14 PM
Hahahahaha. Tell me you put this in there for humor.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:18 PM
2005 was the year Washington was a bad one seed btw. Close game with Montana, beat a shitty Pacific team, then got blown out by 4 seed Louisville.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:20 PM
That. Shit. Cray.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:20 PM
Weakest #1 seeds in recent memory – ’90 Oklahoma (lost in 2nd round), ’96 Purdue (lost in 2nd round), ’99 Auburn (lost in S16), ’05 Washington (lost in S16), ’11 Pitt (lost in 2nd round). It’s not that they lost early it’s that nobody was surprised when they did.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:23 PM
It was one of those years were there were only 3 teams worthy of #1 seeds. I remember there being some controversy b/c Wake was thought to be the 4th 1 seed but the committee didnt want to have 3 #1s from the same conference. Also that was right after Chris Paul punched a guy in the nuts.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:24 PM
Philip morris was in favor of the fda overseeing tobacky? Why? Bc it wsd thr market leader and regulation on advertising would make it more difficult for competitors to gain ground
February 21st, 2013 at 1:24 PM
I remember that Washington team being highly questionable. I will also add the 1996 Purdue team that won their first round game by 2 and then lost in the second round.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:26 PM
I think we might have a winner.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:27 PM
Yep, and with Indiana, Mich St, Michigan you could have had that same scenario. Paul punched Julius Hodge in the nutz, then Wake was a 2 seed and got Pittsnoggled.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:27 PM
Just because they won it doesn’t mean 2009-10 Duke didn’t appear shaky before the tourney.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:27 PM
Catamounts took a 3 at the end that would have won it.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:28 PM
I’ll take Butler as a 13 against the field.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:29 PM
’99 Auburn (lost in S16)
Holy shit. I can’t believe that happened. That’s the year Sparty beat the Gators for the title, right? IIRC the draft that followed is considered to be the worst in NBA history
February 21st, 2013 at 1:33 PM
1999 was a decent draft (Brand, Francis, B. Davis). You’re thinking of the 2000 draft which was horrific, only producing 2 All-Stars. Those 2 All-Stars? Kenyon Martin and Jamaal Magloire.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:36 PM
I remember Arkansas beating them in Fayetteville that year, about the loudest I’ve ever heard Bud Walton.
Chris Porter could jump out of the damn gym.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:37 PM
Completely forgot Auburn was a No. 1 seed. Good lord.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:37 PM
#1 in KenPom going into the tournament. They appeared shaky because they started 3 white guys and they had struggled in the tournament the previous 5 years.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:38 PM
That was 2000. In ’99 the other #1′s were UConn, Duke, and MSU and all 3 made the F4. 2000 was the worst tournament ever, partly due to Cincinnati losing Kenyon Martin in the C-USA tournament. Cincy was probably the best team that year.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:41 PM
OT
Timberlake to host SNL on 3/9.
/OT
February 21st, 2013 at 1:42 PM
Damn shame, Cincy was definitely the best team and it wasn’t a guarantee they would win but they would have ahd a fair shake.
That tourney was horrible, especially the Final Four. No offense to Mich State and the Flintstones.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:44 PM
Dick Bennett tried to single handedly destroy college basketball in that Final 4.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:44 PM
LSU walking off the floor at halftime of their Sweet 16 game against Wisconsin down 22-14 looking completely shell shocked will forever be one of my favorite sports memories
February 21st, 2013 at 1:45 PM
They were a deserved #1 seed that year, though. Nobody questioned it. They only lost 2 games in the regular season.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:47 PM
Two number 8 seeds, a number 5, and #1 MSU which won the tourney and was the only #1 seed to make it’s Regional Final. Iowa St. was the only #2 seed to make it’s Regional Final as well. Just crazy.
While all that chaos might sound great, the tournament was pretty terrible.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:48 PM
Hahaha, was that the Stromile Swift team?
February 21st, 2013 at 1:50 PM
In the other Sweet 16 game that night, the Zags shot like absolute shit, and allowed the world the epic Elite 8 matchup between Purdue and Wisconsin. Yay Brian Cardinal!
February 21st, 2013 at 1:51 PM
You know it, they had some other long and athletic guy too whose name I can’t remember and they had no idea what the hell they were seeing from that defense…think they got all the way to 48 points by game’s end mostly because UW built a big enough lead to sit guys down the stretch, that game was amazing in how weird it was
February 21st, 2013 at 1:51 PM
This is why I love the NCAA tourney more than any other sporting event, even the bad memories are fun to recall.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:52 PM
Brian Cardinal playing 12 years in the NBA amazed me since I assumed he was 35 his senior year at Purdue
February 21st, 2013 at 1:55 PM
fuck John Brady.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:55 PM
Butters, you can re-live that night….
http://vault.ncaa.com/?game=306SR158_s01&timecode=00%3A00%3A05%3A00
February 21st, 2013 at 1:56 PM
I don’t think anyone questioned it, and looking at the #2 seeds it was likely deserved, but they didn’t exactly play anyone in the non-conference that year.
February 21st, 2013 at 1:58 PM
They appeared shaky because they started 3 white guys and they had struggled in the tournament the previous 5 years.
And because a not great Georgetown team ran them off the floor
February 21st, 2013 at 1:59 PM
The best game of the tourney was the Florida-Butler game in the 1st round. The UNC-Tulsa(w Bill Self) regional final was pretty good too.
February 21st, 2013 at 2:00 PM
Definitely watching that game sometime soon…hope it’s just as hilarious as I remember it
February 21st, 2013 at 2:14 PM
John Brady, a talking pile of pigshit.
February 21st, 2013 at 2:32 PM
I think that was the year Jake Vohskul led UConn past a stacked Duke team (Brand, Maggette, Langdan, Avery) for the title.