Big Ten Seems Ready For Move to East/West Divisions With Michigan and Ohio State Together
The Big Ten is soliciting popular opinion on new division formats with the additions of Maryland and Rutgers. This seems to be a mere prelude to moving to an East/West alignment with Michigan and Ohio State together in the East.
The conference offered three possible formats in its public poll.
Option 1: Keep the present “Legends and Leaders” while adding Maryland and Rutgers.
Option 2: Move to an East/West alignment.
East: Maryland, Rutgers, Penn State, Ohio State, Michigan, Michigan State, Indiana
West: Nebraska, Minnesota, Wisconsin, Iowa, Northwestern, Illinois, Purdue
Option 3: Move to an Inner/Outer alignment.
Inner: Michigan, Michigan State, Ohio State, Illinois, Indiana, Northwestern, Purdue
Outer: Penn State, Rutgers, Maryland, Nebraska, Iowa, Wisconsin, Minnesota
No inside knowledge here, but Option 2 is the only one that makes sense. Keeping the Legends/Leaders makes little sense logistically. It keeps the Michigan/Ohio State replay possibility intact (no one wants to see this). Having a public debate would only inflame criticism of the current alignment. There’s no point opening that can unless greasing the wheels for change.
The inner/outer alignment is convoluted and makes no sense from a business perspective. The whole purpose of expansion is to extend the Big Ten brand into the I-95 cable market. It would be silly to do that and then set up a division alignment where the conference’s two biggest programs, Michigan and Ohio State, only play there every few years.
Option 2, East/West, is the alignment the best option logistically and geographically. The one concern would be competitive balance – Michigan State could be screwed if Penn State rose again – though that could be rectified by swapping Purdue and Michigan State (with Michigan and Michigan State playing a fixed inter-division game).
While the winds of change are blowing, it’s worth noting one of the most high-profile opponents of the nine-game conference schedule just left. More valuable television inventory. Just saying.
[Photo via Getty]

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110 Responses to “Big Ten Seems Ready For Move to East/West Divisions With Michigan and Ohio State Together”
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December 14th, 2012 at 5:18 PM
inner/outer is good if you are an inner fan. a travel disaster for the outers
December 14th, 2012 at 5:18 PM
rarely do I agree with duffy, but he is right on this one. I filled out the survey and in the additional comments indicated that I would prefer that adding Rutgers and Maryland not be added.
December 14th, 2012 at 5:19 PM
east/west is solid, but the east is stacked…top 3 programs
December 14th, 2012 at 5:19 PM
or we could just go with “business as usual” and continue to not give a fuck about michigan state.
December 14th, 2012 at 5:23 PM
, isn’t scheduled to interview and has no interest in Wisconsin.”
December 14th, 2012 at 5:27 PM
I see OSU, but PSU is way more relevant in those parts than Mich
December 14th, 2012 at 5:39 PM
Inner and outer divisions? I remember a day when people made sense… This makes the randomness of legends and leaders look like a coherent idea.
December 14th, 2012 at 5:45 PM
true dawgfather, but idk how they can achieve competitive balance if they go with a geographical model
December 14th, 2012 at 5:46 PM
The inner/outer alignment is convoluted and makes no sense from a business perspective
That idea is asinine. It is a red herring. I wonder what the reason that is even an option.
December 14th, 2012 at 5:46 PM
SEC got pretty lucky with the balance of their east-west alignment, come to think of it
December 14th, 2012 at 5:48 PM
OSU and Michigan being in the same division is the only logical solution. It made sense to want the possibility of them in the title game as you’re trying to grow and promote the B1G title game and unlike the SEC there’s a huge marketability gap between the top teams and the rest of the conference. But the possibility of them playing twice a year on a regular basis does more harm than good to the rivalry.
December 14th, 2012 at 5:50 PM
It’s been cyclical. West has been on top lately but for a while Tenn/Fla took turns beating up on the likes of Arky and Miss. State.
December 14th, 2012 at 5:51 PM
Are you an innie or an outie? I’m gonna go innie.
Now back to the question at hand for the Big 10. I’d go East & West and move on. That Leaders and Legends bullshit was to massage some egos in the conference. Seriously, I still cant believe those names were suggested and worse yet, decided upon!
They wonder why the Big 10 is laughed at.
“There’s nothing that cleanses your soul like getting the hell kicked out of you” – Woody Hayes
Seems as though that could been applied to the people that suggested those division names.
December 14th, 2012 at 5:52 PM
This is fucking stupid.
December 14th, 2012 at 5:54 PM
It will be cyclical for Bama too. They’re on top now, but 4-5 years from now, they could be recovering from some NCAA violations / recruiting scandal. As a Bama fan for the last 30 years, I told my boy to sit back enjoy the ride and tell everyone fock ya! Cause the ride will be over soon and you’ll have to go back to waiting in line.
/Roll Damn Tide
December 14th, 2012 at 5:54 PM
Ya, but the quality of programs are well split. Bama/LSU/Aub should be about on par with UF/Tenn/UGa. West clearly has more depth, but they two sides are reasonably even
December 14th, 2012 at 5:55 PM
OSU/Mich/PSU waaaaay better than Neb/Wisc/Iowa
December 14th, 2012 at 6:04 PM
You think so sctrojans? I’m not sure about that. I will give OSU over NEB, especially since Urban is the new sheriff in town and he’ll look to run that conference. As for UM? Not completely sold on the Brady Hoke experiment. They have been a nice change since the RichRod fiasco, but I’m still wait and see mode. As for PSU, they are going to be licking their wounds for some years to come. This is year was a band together and ride the storm out kinda year. I was happy for them, but the depletions in scholarships is going take its toll. It did with Bama in the early 2000s.
Wisconsin is better program than UM and PSU right now. Same amount of Rose Bowls appearances with both UM/PSU teams combined. Iowa has owned PSU the last 10 years.
December 14th, 2012 at 6:09 PM
Agreed that it’s pretty equal in the short-term. But I think OSU/Mich/PSU are the best three programs long term. It’s tough to win at Nebraska. History has shown it requires a perfect blend of coach and scheme. Wisconsin is strong for sure, but Iowa has a very low ceiling.
December 14th, 2012 at 6:11 PM
That’s how it’s turned out, but when these divisions were formed LSU was garbage. Their rise coupled with Tenn’s fall has shifted things somewhat, not to mention A&M/Mizzou has added to the imbalance (though nobody really saw A&M coming). Also Ole Miss is more likely to break through with the occasional 9-10 win season than Vandy/UK.
December 14th, 2012 at 6:12 PM
I don’t think it’s fair to judge PSU on recent past and immediate future performance. They’ve had an ancient head coach and are now crippled by sanctions. I don’t think PSU will have any problems getting it rolling again once NCAA stuff passes
December 14th, 2012 at 6:12 PM
Long term this is absolutely the case. Iowa’s had a couple nice seasons under Ferentz but they’ve never been able to sustain it. Neb is stuck in Pelini Purgatory and Wisky’s got a coaching search ahead of them, not much of a home recruiting base, and now the word is out they don’t pay assistants.
December 14th, 2012 at 6:13 PM
True, but they were clearly a sleeping giant. As much access to talent as almost anyone
December 14th, 2012 at 6:15 PM
Kind of how I feel about Illinois in the B1G.
December 14th, 2012 at 8:14 PM
Yup, hopefully now that most of the shitty “trophy” games have been split up already, now we can move to the sensible East/West that should have happened originally.
I’m not concerned about balance, the east winner will just be the winner every year, no problem. And way less games in pig fucker states.
Despite being a trojan fan you alright.
December 14th, 2012 at 9:08 PM
Who cares?,it’s still going to be a bunch of baseball scores anyways.
December 14th, 2012 at 9:08 PM
Rename the divisions field goal and missed field goal.
December 14th, 2012 at 9:23 PM
Wisconsin won tons of games with Meathead Bret Bielema at the helm. They would absolutely own that division in option 2…win it 4 out of every 5 years. And I hate Wisc football despite living in the state my entire life.
December 14th, 2012 at 9:34 PM
So, I’m watching GA Southern – N Dakota St … Go Eagles.
North Dakota wins the ugly competition … and it’s not even close.
Easily, the ugliest effin’ people I’ve ever seen, are in the FargoDome. Holy shit them are some fat, face-beaten folks.
December 14th, 2012 at 9:34 PM
This implies B1G teams play defense…
December 14th, 2012 at 9:36 PM
Hey Mount Union … move up a notch or something.
Beating the crap out of all the little kids in the neighborhood is just awesome.
December 14th, 2012 at 9:43 PM
Pollack looks pasty. I know it’s December, but get some outside time dude.
December 14th, 2012 at 9:45 PM
but get some outside time dude.
Wouldn’t do him any good here. We’ve seen the sun for about 5 hours all week.
December 14th, 2012 at 9:50 PM
Over/under on number of monster truck rallies held at the FargoDome per year: 48?
December 14th, 2012 at 9:58 PM
Competitive balance isn’t that big of a deal. Like others have said it is pretty cyclical. Look at the beginnings of the Big 12 in the early mid 90′s, Nebraska/CU/KSU were far stronger than the southern counterparts. That changed in a few years when OU and Texas started to dominate. Later on Missouri and even Kansas had some good years as well as TT and OSU in the south.
Point being, do it by geography and don’t worry about competitive balance. I would suggest keeping historic rivals together in some way. Neb vs OU used to be the pinnacle of college football back in the Big 8 days. That was pretty much minimized by the Big 12 and destroyed when Nebraska left for the Big 10/11.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:15 PM
Hey Clay Matthews …. please go away.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:16 PM
monster truck rallies
Went to a freestyle motocross/monster truck show one time. Freestyle mx was fuckin bad ass in person, even before the backflip days. Got to the monster truck part, looked at my friend and asked if he was ready to go. He said yep. We left.
End of story.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:21 PM
End of awesome story.
Fixed.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:29 PM
speaking of crazy sports, i caught some of that red bull mountain bike competition that was on last weekend, guys doing single track in utah, across huge gaps and down insane drops. it was nerve-wracking to watch, convinced i was gonna see compound fractures or death
December 14th, 2012 at 10:32 PM
here’s some highlights of ^
December 14th, 2012 at 10:34 PM
Vez you ever seen the video of that dude in the space ship looking biker suit riding down the volcano’s ash surface? Think the guys front wheel fell off, and it was just glorious mayhem to watch after that.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:34 PM
convinced i was gonna see compound fractures or death
Why we watch motorsports.
/real’d
December 14th, 2012 at 10:39 PM
‘Sup, fellas?
Good news, bad news:
Good news – my Grizzlies are playing in Denver tonight.
Bad news – television choices are Altitude (Christopher Marlowe is a homer of the highest order) OR ESPN (’nuff said).
NBA League pass is free this weekend, but that doesn’t help me. No SportsSouth telecast. Waaaaaaaa.
If I wasn’t so lazy, I coulda just drove an hour up the interstate, but noooooooo…
December 14th, 2012 at 10:41 PM
I got free tickets to the Indy Car race at Dover out of a case a coke. They stopped bringing the cars here for two reasons. The only people that went were the ones that got free tickets, and those cars are too expensive to replace. I think only 9 people finished the race. Every one else? Fucking smashed. Those cars were way too fast for a mile oval track with a dip in the track at turn 3 that pretty much catapulted them straight into the wall.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:43 PM
Hey SROD – pretty quiet here tonight.
Watch the FBS semi-final game ESPN2. Pretty good game, especially if you like triple option executed with precision.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:43 PM
I got free tickets to the Indy Car race at Dover out of a case a coke. They stopped bringing the cars here for two reasons. The only people that went were the ones that got free tickets, and those cars are too expensive to replace. I think only 9 people finished the race. Every one else? Fucking smashed. Those cars were way too fast for a mile oval track with a dip in the track at turn 3 that pretty much catapulted them straight into the wall.
Translation-it was a demolition derby with cars that have price tags that make a Ferrari look like a fucking Saturn.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:44 PM
NBA League pass is free this weekend
Thought they did that the first week? Or is this an extra advertising campaign?
December 14th, 2012 at 10:46 PM
Nice cheap shot
December 14th, 2012 at 10:47 PM
Yeah, squawkbox. Fridays here are usually pretty slow.
Dialed up the GA Southern game. I checked earlier after reading comment 28 (hah!). NoDaks are a hardy breed, but that climate is pretty rough. Beats the hell outta everyone there.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:47 PM
Nice cheap shot
Do you drive a Saturn?
December 14th, 2012 at 10:48 PM
I got free tickets to the Indy Car race at Dover out of a case a coke.
I’ve been to several Nascar races and I think I’ve only paid once.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:50 PM
Meth, it’s extra promo. Now that the weather is turning colder, it is so easy to sit my butt on my couch & watch.
Wouldn’t that be cool to drive, though? I would love to take an F1 car thru its paces for a few. I would crash, though. No doubt.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:51 PM
NoDaks are a hardy breed
Fantastic.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:51 PM
Keep an eye out for Chris Mullin’s coach interviews. When I’ve seen them, he doesn’t ask questions, so much as give the coach his analysis and wait to be agreed with.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:52 PM
got the nuggets minus 1 chasing first horrible night in awhile
cheering me up
if you think you know the pretenders and your experience began with the 90s, get their first album. genius from start to finish
December 14th, 2012 at 10:53 PM
I would crash, though. No doubt
I actually did the 2-day Panoz Road Racing school a number of years ago. Much harder than you think. One of the guys in the class put it in the grass – saw it in my rearview – hilarious.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:53 PM
went and saw Skyfall tonight. Not too shabby.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:54 PM
ohio’s ok in my book, if only because it gave us early pretenders
‘i shot my mouth off and you showed me what that hole was….for!’
December 14th, 2012 at 10:55 PM
some serious homer calls – terrible
December 14th, 2012 at 10:55 PM
I would crash, though. No doubt.
I saw this clip online one time of a British car show where they pitted a crotch rocket, F1 car, and a speed boat to see which was faster. Had them race on a runway surrounded by water. The guy duy driving the F1 car said you could give it full throttle until after 100 MPH because if you did it would do donuts. Can you imagine trying to floor it at 95 and spinning out?! Fuck…that!
December 14th, 2012 at 10:56 PM
The guy duy
Type much, me?
No, you?
December 14th, 2012 at 10:56 PM
Couldn’t give it full throttle*
I just need to get off work and go to bed.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:57 PM
I’ve driven some fast cars, and would be completely terrified of driving one of those. They weigh nothing compared to street cars. I drove a turbo charged all wheel drive 470 horsepower Porsche for a weekend when worked at the dealership. Unreal how quick it is and it’s probably 200 hp less than F1 cars.
December 14th, 2012 at 10:57 PM
Smallie, I wanna see it, but now in a theater full of hyper teens. One good thing about being retired – matinees during the work week.
Vez, I loved the Pretenders. The original lineup with Farndon and Honeyman-Scott was pretty punky. But, “Talk of the Town” cruised melodically. Love me some Chrissie Hynde.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:00 PM
SROD, the theatre was only quarter full at the most. We went to the older theatre in town. The newer one is bigger and nicer, but always more packed. I think most of the younger crowd goes to the Imax theatre down the road.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:00 PM
Memphis struggles to score. Haven’t adequately replaced Mayo. Gonna need to add more perimeter scoring
December 14th, 2012 at 11:00 PM
I want! I need the rush. Speed is life.
How does Fargo rate a dome?
December 14th, 2012 at 11:01 PM
A couple years back my bro and I went to an IndyCar race at the Milwaukee Mile. The one thing that shocked us was the amount of black people there. We have been to Brewers and Bucks games but neither of those had as many black people as the race. We were surprised.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:01 PM
How does Fargo rate a dome?
More importantly do the Fargo women give good dome? Or are they the ones asking for dome?
December 14th, 2012 at 11:02 PM
The one thing that shocked us was the amount of black people there.
That was random.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:02 PM
we’re not all retired jet fighter pilots SROD
December 14th, 2012 at 11:03 PM
we’re not all retired
jet fighter pilotsbiscuit punchers SRODFixed for this plumbing’s ’bout to find out who’s boss!
December 14th, 2012 at 11:03 PM
Racing school.
They put out cones to mark the apex of turns. The idea is to place your rear tire as close to that cone as possible.
Coming up around one of the last turns near the pit wall is a cone off the white line. In-car-instructor keeps telling me “You gotta put your rear wheel on that cone” (in Brazilian accent). I finally decided “Eff it – I’m hitting that cone.” I tried, it threw me out of the turn and I shot past the car in front of me – we were supposed to stay in line – but I couldn’t.
Incredible.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:03 PM
Ya know, sc, Bayless and Pondexter filled some of that gap in bench scoring – back in November. Now, not so much.
The Grizz usually struggle in Pepsi Center. No surprise that they are struggling tonight. Grizz try to run, but the Nuggets do it better.
Touchdown, Bison! Dang it.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:07 PM
I think Ben Gordon would be a nice pickup for the Grizz
December 14th, 2012 at 11:07 PM
Two shots to the dome!
Neither am I. You know my story. I just like the feeling of wind in my fuzzy hair.
They drove up from Chicago, maybe? (kidding)
I always heard there was a low-key but plentiful black culture in Milwaukee, but I’ve never been. I guess Kareem would disagree, though.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:07 PM
Someone of his ilk at least. A scoring 2 with a reasonable contract
December 14th, 2012 at 11:08 PM
damn
December 14th, 2012 at 11:08 PM
I wouldn’t mind trying that school where they teach you the stunts. I thought that’s what you were talking about when you first brought it up squawk.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:09 PM
bad roughing the passer call changes the game. unbelievablbe
December 14th, 2012 at 11:09 PM
Hell yeah!!!!!!!
December 14th, 2012 at 11:09 PM
Yee haw! I drive a little like that now.
GA Southern hit a deep ball. They still have a chance.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:09 PM
I know SROD, but you can pretend.
I sold a car to a jet pilot one time. Delivered it to the Atlantic City airport. They had to let me in the back gate to get into the secure facility. He told me if the sirens wen off, he had to run, and would be in the air in 90 seconds, and someone would be along to get me. Said it was a 5 minute flight to NYC, 3 minutes to Philly, and 7 minutes to DC. Even took me out in the hangar and showed me his jet. It was pretty cool.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:10 PM
/hates the triple option
December 14th, 2012 at 11:11 PM
sc, maybe you’re right. I shudder to think what the Grizz would have to give up to get a guy like Gordon. And, would he want to come off the bench?
They had Arenas in that role last year, but he didn’t do consistently well.
a 50-yarder attempt for the tie? with a guy who just joined the team? No pressure, kid.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:12 PM
/hatesloves the triple optionFIXED!!!
December 14th, 2012 at 11:12 PM
Best part, when I was filling out his credit application over the phone, I asked him his employer and job title, and his response was “air force, fighter pilot”.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:12 PM
Yee haw! I drive a little like that now.
One time I was fucking around in the snow with my no positrac having piece of shit truck, and started to lose her. I tried to replay the image in my head, as it would’ve been seen from a curious bystander. I pictured time slowing down, and a classical music piece playing, all the while as I look out the window at this spectator as I’m spinning with a look of, “Oh well” on my face. Good times.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:13 PM
Meth I ever tell you about when I almost wrecked the numbered Bullitt Mustang?
December 14th, 2012 at 11:13 PM
suck it N Dak. Enjoy the winter.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:15 PM
Meth I ever tell you about when I almost wrecked the numbered Bullitt Mustang?
Don’t recall. I’m listening.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:16 PM
Anytime we had a fast car on the lot, i always took it back behind this shopping plaza near the lot. Way in the back corner there was a stop sign, and if you went right, it only went about 10 yards and then yu had to go left, so it was basically an S curve.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:16 PM
I’m sure you heard the joke “how many pilots does it take to change a light bulb?”
“Just one. He holds the bulb and the world revolves around him.”
Deep. I’d be screaming like a schoolgirl.
Kick blocked. GA Southern goes home in defeat. Kickers.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:17 PM
I think they’d have to give up a draft pick. Gordon has spent a lot of his career as a 6th man, so that should be ok. Great thing about him is he has NO fear whatsoever of taking big shots.
Ya, Arenas fell of a cliff. Dude is playing in China if memory serves
December 14th, 2012 at 11:17 PM
There was seemingly never cars coming down that street, so that’s where I would turn off traction control and gun it from the stop slide so I could power slide through the turn before flooring it and getting up to about 80 before I’d have to slow down to stop at the coming light.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:18 PM
wasn’t the kicker – G/T got blown up.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:19 PM
Deep. I’d be screaming like a schoolgirl.
If there would have been cars/telephone polls…me, too. But it was a back ass country road, nobody else on it, and I wasn’t going fast. Was just fucking around. I didn’t crash, and knew I wasn’t going to (asides from maybe needing a pull out of the ditch), so it was all in good fun.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:21 PM
There was seemingly never cars coming down that street
And that’s when keeping it real went wrong.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:22 PM
Yep. And, as much as I dislike Gay’s offensive game, he has hit buzzer-beaters in his career. So, another threat in the end-game would only help.
Now, if they could just get a strong post defender to protect the basket…
December 14th, 2012 at 11:23 PM
So one day we get in the Bullitt Mustang, number 1802 out of however many they made, but it was a limited edition, hooked up all around zand had less than 2,000 miles on it. It was a 6 speed, and I was one of the only ones who could drive stick. One of my salespeople knew I was going to my “test track” for a trial run, so he hops in with me. We get back to the stop sign, and I gun it like normal, and come out of the turn completely sideways, and I see a car coming toward us. I panicked slightly, and overcorrected my slide and barely gained control before I hit this car coming towards me. When I gained control, I gunned it and got out of their quick. The look on the face of the car I almost hit was matched by the guy sitting white knuckled in the passenger seat.
Needless to say, I was a little more careful with fast cars after that.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:24 PM
Needless to say, I was a little more careful with fast cars after that.
And these were customers’ cars?! That’s just wrong…
December 14th, 2012 at 11:24 PM
Yeah, but it’s more fun to blame the kicker.
Seriously, it seems to me that home field in FCS is a key advantage. I too just expected the Bison to pull it out, in large part because they were the home team.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:25 PM
Went to a BMW dealership (Windy Hill Rd – Atlanta burbs) with a guy who was a BMW mechanic on the side, so the sales guy knew of him.
Took a 5 series on a test drive – sweeping curve near the dealership and Marriott hotel … Several times, sales guy: “You gotta accelerate through the curves.” So I did, and and slid it sideways into the hotel parking lot. Guy was pale, my friend was in the back seat laughing.
Would’ve been much cooler if I didn’t almost roll it, but … I almost rolled it. I was sweating.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:25 PM
No those were cars we had on the lot for sale.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:29 PM
squawk, that’s funny. nerve wracking when you have a close call like that, especially if it isn’t your car.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:31 PM
Seriously, it seems to me that home field in FCS is a key advantage.
No doubt. That little POS of a dome in Fargo sucks.
December 14th, 2012 at 11:36 PM
I know, I’m Captain Obvious. But, no way you’d see ‘Bama at Notre Dame for the BCS championship in January. The ‘Net would be ablaze with complaints about homerism.
But, not in FCS? It’s OK to put that bias in D1-AA? I realize “it’s always been that way”. Too bad GSU wasn’t the home team. Maybe a different result, at least with some of those penalties late in the 4th.
December 15th, 2012 at 12:09 AM
That would have to be at least a 7 point swing in the spread.
December 15th, 2012 at 12:37 AM
How does Fargo rate a dome?
srod, in 84 when i went to the U of Idaho, the vandals had the kibbie dome. this is moscow idaho. so if moscow gets one, americans in fargo get one
December 15th, 2012 at 7:37 AM
Nicely played, Vez. Appeal to my inherent patriotism. You’re good. Real good.
The “Moscow” pun was deft, to be sure.