Miguel Cabrera Vs. Mike Trout for AL MVP: What Does History Say?
The Miguel Cabrera vs. Mike Trout debate fascinates me for any number of reasons. The reason it is so compelling is that it brings so many opposites to bear in debating decisions and value. As this is the political season, of course, everyone must bash the other candidate and make strong appeals that to not believe in their guy is akin to idiocy.
So, before we go further, let’s just say this: both men have had fantastic seasons and neither would do a discredit to being memorialized with the award.
As for the various distinctions and factions that could be divided here, we have:
1) The value of defense and base running versus slugging power and driving in runs. Let’s just say that Trout is no slouch in the power department this year, but the difference in how one views them is how much emphasis is placed on the former versus the latter, where Cabrera holds the edge.
2) The value of milestones, and which milestones are important. Miguel Cabrera very well could wrap up the Triple Crown this weekend, and according to this, a sizeable number of people think he is the MVP if he wins that, but not if he doesn’t. Trout and Cabrera are separated by .004 right now in batting average, and the lead is reversed in on base percentage. Basically an imperceptible wash. Cabrera has a one home run lead on Josh Hamilton with two games left. Hamilton missed time recently with the eye issue. Is Cabrera less of an MVP candidate if Hamilton ties him in the final two games? More of one because an unrelated event may give him a narrow victory in the category?
3) Age and Career Achievement. Let’s face it, Trout is very young, and Cabrera is putting up a fantastic year for a guy who has never won but on balance is among the best in the game. Will this carry weight?
4) Team Accomplishments. This is an interesting and twisted one. Cabrera’s team is now in the playoffs; Trout’s is not. Of course, the Angels have won two more games. As Rany Jazerlyi said on 810 radio in Kansas City this morning, a vote for Cabrera on this basis is a vote for geography, and the Tigers competing against the White Sox, Royals, Twins and Indians.
Let’s put aside all the talk, though, and the references to how many times a Triple Crown winner has or has not won it, and just ask this. How did the voters view other similar seasons to both of these guys? We don’t even have to talk about WAR.
I went through to narrow down a list of similar seasons for each. (Trout type seasons are more rare, of course). For Trout, it was seasons with 550 plate appearances, at least 30 stolen bases, and at least 20 home runs, and an OPS+ of at least 140. Those limits gave us 52 seasons since 1961–the start of the expansion era.
For Cabrera, going with at least 630 plate appearances, a batting average of between .310 and .350, between 36 and 52 home runs, 20 or fewer stolen bases, and an OPS+ between 150 and 185 produced an almost identical 53 seasons over the same span.
I then took those seasons and ranked each by how close they were to Trout’s and Cabrera’s, respectively, in the following categories: G, PA, HR, BA, OBP, SLG, Net Stolen Bases (SB-CS), and OPS+.
Here are the ten most similar seasons to each, and where they finished in MVP voting. Obviously, any given season may depend on what others do and how the player is perceived.
MIKE TROUT
- Barry Bonds, 1990 (1st)
- Cesar Cedeno, 1972 (8th)
- Ryan Braun, 2011 (1st)
- Barry Larkin, 1996 (11th)
- Reggie Sanders, 1995 (6th)
- Joe Morgan, 1976 (1st)
- Hanley Ramirez, 2007 (10th)
- Cesar Cedeno, 1973 (11th)
- Rickey Henderson, 1990 (1st)
- Howard Johnson, 1989 (5th)
Mike Trout has four MVP’s on his list, including both from the 1990 season, when Barry Bonds and Rickey Henderson both won by all-around play that included home runs, high batting average, and stolen bases. The other lessons here? Cesar Cedeno was probably really under-appreciated as a young player. Barry Larkin interestingly won the MVP the year before this 1996 season, but fell to 11th in voting despite another strong year. As much as some people want to craft Trout’s candidacy as some sort of referendum on WAR, Trout winning as an all-around player with home runs, stolen bases, and high on base percentage wouldn’t exactly be novel.
- Albert Pujols, 2005 (1st)
- Hank Aaron, 1962 (6th)
- Albert Belle, 1998 (8th)
- Frank Thomas, 2000 (2nd)
- Billy Williams, 1972 (2nd)
- Albert Pujols, 2004 (3rd)
- Adrian Beltre, 2004 (2nd)
- George Foster, 1977 (1st)
- Jim Rice, 1979 (5th)
- Chipper Jones, 2001 (8th)
Cabrera’s comps include two MVP season, Pujols and Foster. Cabrera-type seasons are more likely to be recognized as among the best and finish top 5. None of them finished lower than 8th in voting. Three of them came up just short, something that Cabrera hopes to avoid.
I would say that on balance, seasons like Mike Trout’s are more likely to win MVP, and that’s even without discussing WAR or getting detailed on defense, but it certainly is a close call based on past seasons and whether they won MVP. Of course, those other factors like winning the Triple Crown and Tigers making the playoffs will play a role in some voters’ minds this time around.
[photo via US Presswire]

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142 Responses to “Miguel Cabrera Vs. Mike Trout for AL MVP: What Does History Say?”
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October 3rd, 2012 at 11:35 AM
Cabrera because a triple crown does not happen very often.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:36 AM
I do think there’s been a dramatic change in peoples’ (even old-school writers) belief in sabermetrics over the last few years. That being said, I still think a triple crown season means MVP will be voted MVP.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:40 AM
Trout’s the ONLY player ever with 30 HR, 45 SB and 125R.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:41 AM
And when they do the winner rarely wins the MVP if history is to be believed…Cabrera winning the award is completely justified but this shouldn’t be the reason
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:41 AM
Lisk, have you examined numbers such as production in one-run games, the seventh inning or later, etc.?
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:41 AM
Triple crown = automatic MVP. No getting around that, even though Trout had the better season. The acting award idea that “the younger guy has more opportunity to win one so give it to the veteran” will also be in play.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:42 AM
Freudian slip? I meant Cabrera.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:42 AM
I can’t get behind some of these Sabermetrics. WAR is stupid. Mike Trout is worth 10 wins? His replacement would be Bourjous. If Miggy ain’t playing 3B. Don Kelly or Ryan Raburn are playing 3B. If that were to play out. Tiger wins probably 15 less games.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:43 AM
And two of the triple crown categories have serious flaws as one does not account for the impact of walks, hit by batters, sac flies, and the other is merely a function of the people ahead of you in the batting order getting on base.
Trout should win, easy. Best player of the year, faced much harder pitching all year long, most value created via defense & base skills.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:43 AM
Completely false, though coming from you we shouldn’t be surprised.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:44 AM
Trout’s the ONLY player ever with 30 HR, 45 SB and 125R.
But those stats are different than the other arbitrary ones that make up the triple crown!
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:44 AM
But his team didn’t make the playoffs how valuable could he be?
/traditionalists
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:44 AM
That’s a fantastic way to look at WAR. Let’s place even more reliance on subjective factors.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:44 AM
Yeah, didn’t happen in the 40s when DiMaggio won over Ted Williams twice. Because DiMaggio was the more well-rounded player.
Maybe writers way back in the day understood the value created by being a good defender and having good skills on the basepaths?
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:44 AM
Tweet from Tigers media relations guy after Monday (before Cabrera’s two more hits and two more RBI last night):
Also, 97 Ks in 620 ABs.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:45 AM
When it hasn’t happened in nearly 45 years? Yes, if someone wins a triple crown in the modern era its a lock.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:46 AM
Interesting methodology, Jason. One I hadn’t seen done yet despite the amount of digital space that has been used on this debate.
Only other factors I’ve seen used that you didn’t here that I thought held some merit were the cost at which the players are doing this and dissection of pitching staffs in the AL West compared to the AL Central.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:46 AM
I’m rooting for Cabrera. His team made the postseason!
/jokes
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:47 AM
SC is back!
Was this a “hate-view” SC?
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:47 AM
Yet you cannot score runs if the guys batting behind you does not move you around for you to score a run.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:47 AM
Trout hasn’t been arrested yet. Miggy has been locked up twice. MIGGY FOR MVP. When Trout threatens to burn a bar down and chugs a bottle of liquor in front of a cop he’ll get my vote.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:48 AM
See, I don’t like this…personally I’d vote Trout but it’s not an easy pick, Miggy’d be my choice in the AL probably every other year this decade with those numbers, just happened that there was another monster season this year
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:48 AM
Maybe you should get off his back? He’s providing intelligent content to a reasonable discussion.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:48 AM
Full disclosure: I’m a lifelong Tigers fan.
Trout has had an amazing season. If he wins, I can certainly understand why he would receive votes.
Call me old school (go ahead, do it), but the Triple Crown was named for a reason. It is a hell of an accomplishment.
And since everyone loves subjective topics, who would you want at bat in the 9th inning of a tie game with guys on base? No doubt in my mind who that would be…
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:48 AM
He lost to Joe DiMaggio once. He lost to Joe Gordon the other time.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:48 AM
Yet you cannot score runs if the guys batting behind you does not move you around for you to score a run.
Right, “Runs” is flawed…..that doesn’t discredit his point.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:49 AM
look, if we’re not discussing this race with WAR, what is it good for?
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:49 AM
Here’s something for the Miggy defenders:
2010: .328/.420/.622 89BB 95K
2011: .344/.448/.586 108 BB 89K
2012: .331/.394/.608 66 BB 97 K
Why didn’t he win the MVP in 2010 or 2011 when his rate stats were better in both of those years?
/whistles and waits for an answer
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:49 AM
How many out? All things being equal between these hitters if it’s less than two I’ll take the guy less likely to GIDP
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:50 AM
Yeah, didn’t happen in the 40s when DiMaggio won over Ted Williams twice. Because DiMaggio was the more well-rounded player.
Isn’t Trout the more well rounded player?
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:50 AM
You can get rid of me any time you like, Jason. You don’t need to bait me into saying something you deem worthy of removing me from the website you are the editor of.
This was a well written piece that I hadn’t seen elsewhere.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:50 AM
If Miguel was white and named Michael. And Trout was named Manny. This wouldn’t even be a discussion. Baseball writers and the media are RACIST!
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:51 AM
Amusingly, Cabrera’s OPS+ this season is down from 2010 and 2011.
I’m with Trout.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:51 AM
BB up and K down because he wasn’t seeing nearly as many hit-worthy pitches without a guy like Prince Fielder behind him.
And save the Victor Martinez-as-protection comment.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:51 AM
Trout, because he is less likely (albeit slightly) to make an out.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:51 AM
Fair point, but ….
Not a fan of the double-standard, though … if he can dish it out my way, why can’t I dish it back?
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:52 AM
RBIs are the most worthless way of measuring offensive production. Miggy has a lot of them because of Austin Jackson’s breakout season (.298/.376/.476, 103 R, 5.3 fWAR)
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:52 AM
This is probably the most reasonable comment I’ve seen. Miggy just picked a bad year to be ridiculous. I would just love to know how crazy this discussion would be if Hamilton didn’t have so many bumpy stretches this season.
We all know Raul Ibanez is the real MVP this season. He’s going to be the singular reason for number 28.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:52 AM
Again, I don’t think you can expect enough voters to ignore the first Triple Crown winner in nearly half a century. If Cabrera holds on to those category leads, no matter how flawed, its almost impossible to imagine that he wont win.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:53 AM
BB up and K down because he wasn’t seeing nearly as many hit-worthy pitches without a guy like Prince Fielder behind him.
Aren’t walks down?
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:53 AM
why would i boot you or bait you? You’re one of the grown-up commenters. only the kids get kicked out.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:53 AM
DiMaggio’s teams also made the postseason. Advantage Cabrera
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:54 AM
Hmmmmm….
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:54 AM
Sorry, I’m unaware of a “feud” or disagreement between you two.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:55 AM
Oops. Yes. IBB and Unintentional IBB are down.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:56 AM
Especially if there are other runners on base. Cabrera, as his numbers show this year, is more likely to make a force out than Trout. So many factors… who is on base? Who is pitching? Who is left in the opponent’s bullpen? Who is catching?
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:56 AM
Ok, Trout’s team has a better record, advantage Trout. Don’t knock Trout because Oakland had a better season than Chicago.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:56 AM
I would go Cabrera even though Trout had a better season apparently.
I can’t fully get on board with “a win is a win no matter when it happens”…. momentum and losing streaks exist. And Trout came in May and sparked the terrible Angels team to contend for the playoffs, and all but disappeared in Aug/Sep when they dropped out of contention.
Trout’s WAR/month in May-July was spectacular, but I think WAR has a maximum density, and he only really produced for half a season.
Someone who knows baseball stats please answer… but I think that WAR (representing wins) must have a finite value. As an extreme example, ff the Angels go 10-0 without Trout, and 10-0 with him hitting .4/.5/.6, his WAR won’t be zero, even though it may deserve to be. I’m skeptical of giving the MVP for a half-season, when Cabrera anchored a lineup all year, and may have swayed more losses into wins, than Trout did in a much denser period of stat accumulation.
/now tell me why I’m an idiot
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:56 AM
Guys, aren’t we talking about an era dominated by pitchers now? All of these no-hitters and perfect games in recent years should be considered when a player has such high offensive production, no?
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:57 AM
More interested in the NL MVP.
/clownfraud
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:57 AM
I just did a little rWAR historical research. Since the MVP award was instituted in ’31, there have only been 11 times when a player produced a WAR of 10.7 or better (Trout’s total).
Yaz ’67
Bonds ’01 and ’02
Ripken ’91
Mantle ’57 and ’56
Mays ’65 and ’64
Morgan ’75
Musial ’48
Williams ’46
Only one of those 11 failed to win the MVP award: Mays in ’64 when it went to Ken Boyer of the Cardinals.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:58 AM
I didn’t realize that being a well-rounded player included being in a more populous city for a more historic team, and being better-liked by media and fans.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:58 AM
Both deserve it. I would give it to Cabrera, but I’m a tigers fan
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:58 AM
I’m on Team Trout for a variety of reasons (South Jersey kid!), but on this point, Ted Williams hated baseball writers and they, by and large, hated him. That could be a logical (and likely) explanation as to why Williams didn’t win.
Let’s not pretend baseball writers are not prone to their personal prejudices and weirdo tendencies when they vote on these things.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:59 AM
We won’t see a post about it, but it should be Braun winning. However, it will be Posey-Braun-McCutchen in that order.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:59 AM
We are. And both Trout and Miggy did.
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:59 AM
as a beisbol traditionalist, I’m really excited to learn the results of this race.
/co-MVP’s
//guarantee it
October 3rd, 2012 at 11:59 AM
WPA+ for Cabrera 16.4 (11.6-)
WPA+ for Trout 13.7 (8.5-)
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:01 PM
War what is it good for……absolutely nothing
Cabrera ftw
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:01 PM
Interesting. When was the time that happened?
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:01 PM
Well said.
I want to see Trout win it, but I don’t think Cabrera winning would be a catastrophe. It’s not like Cabrera doesn’t have an excellent case.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:01 PM
RE24: 53.3 Trout to 47.6 Cabrera.
/I hate WAR, it’s not transparent, and is almost always used incorrectly
I think it’s absolutely amazing that Trout came up and in 3 months had an incredible season’s worth of stats. And he dragged his team to play meaningful games.
But I’m still going Cabrera and the TC and the playoffs in a weaker division. Fuck it.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:02 PM
1979. Keith Hernandez and Willie Stargell.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:02 PM
Don’t knock Cabrera because in the midst of putting up monster numbers in September that helped lead his team past Chicago in the standings, he’s not a base stealer or a gold glover.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:02 PM
Bourjous wouldn’t even be close to putting up the production that Trout did. Defensively it would probably be a wash, but Bourjous wouldn’t hit like Trout or get on base like he did. He would have ended up with half the stolen bases and runs based on that alone. Let alone he would have hit in the bottom half of the lineup so his runs would probably be a third.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:02 PM
The real question isn’t who’s deserving. It’s, “Will a superior advanced stats season be enough to surpass a Triple Crown season in the modern era?” If you’re interested in the rift between baseball traditionalists and sabermatricians, you couldn’t ask for a better MVP race.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:03 PM
HTown, answered your question in last post. Won’t repost here
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:03 PM
I think Posnanski had a post showing that previous triple crown winners all had the highest WAR that year.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:03 PM
I’d rather have Mike Trout leading off for my team than any other player in baseball. I’d rather have Miguel Cabrera batting in the best run producing position in my lineup than any other player in the American League, with Joey Votto being the only other guy I’d want otherwise.
Only way I know how to sum it up without metrics. Both players are worthy of winning the MVP. The other facet to the story is actually just how much Yoenis Cespedes has challenged Trout in the Rookie of the Year race. If he was healthy all year, that guy could be in the MVP discussion as well. A’s are a playoff team, something some baseball folks like to account for in MVP discussions.
We quibble over awards. It’s good for discussion.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:03 PM
Cabrera .417 wOBA 167 wRC+
Trout .421 wOBA 174 wRC+
Why this is even a discussion. Besides, Miggy’s awful defense at 3B has to be considered.
How about you read about before passing judgement?
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:03 PM
Trout’s average was weak in September, but he still hit 5 dingers with a .380 OBP.
Cabrera had a .378 OBP with 10 dingers.
The difference is in slugging %. I have no point.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:03 PM
*shrugs*
when Manning and McNair shared it?
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:04 PM
Lets be honest, though: how much of that is Cabrera and how much is it Chicago just imploding? Its not like the Tigers won 15 games in a row against the White Sox in September.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:04 PM
And if you go by divisional record: The Angels were 25-20 against the Central, the Tigers were 42-29. Both were similar against the NL and the East, with the Angels much better vs. the AL West.
George King who wouldn’t stole Pedro’s MVP by leaving him off the ballot entirely claiming it was bc he was a pitchers, but had voted for Rick Helling the prior year?
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:05 PM
The White Sox were more responsible for that than Miguel Cabrera was. Baseball is a team game anyways. Don’t think anyone is really knocking Cabrera, too.
Bourjous isn’t a “replacement level player” anyways. The first comparison is flawed from the get-go. Those are the replacements on their respective rosters.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:05 PM
Manny Machado should win it.
/shows self out
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:07 PM
What does he dish out to you?
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:07 PM
Don’t knock Cabrera because in the midst of putting up monster numbers in September that helped lead his team past Chicago in the standings, he’s not a base stealer or a gold glover.
Are you being facetious? He said don’t knock Trout because of the performance of 2 other teams….you then point to two deficiencies in Cabrera’s performance.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:08 PM
WTF are you talking about? The difference in those numbers is negligible, especially when you consider situations, etc. The MVP doesn’t automatically go to the best stats every year.
Givens:
1) Trout had a slightly better offensive year, crammed largely into three months
2) Trout plays far superior defense and has far superior baserunning
3) Angels have a slightly better record
4) Tigers won the division, in large part due to Cabrera
5) Trout slumped at the worst possible time and Angels missed the playoffs
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:08 PM
Like I said previously, you can’t ignore that Miggy faced a higher aggregate ERA then Trout did. The AL Central had the 18th, 21st, 28th and 29th ranked ERAs in the league. When you can feast on shitty pitching, of course your numbers will look better. A’s and Mariners were both top 12 and Texas was 16.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:08 PM
I still think Ventura blowing that game in KC was the final nail in the coffin…but it didn’t help that Konerko appears to have been playing with a busted hand for weeks, helps explain why his bat died
Sigh
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:10 PM
Most of the difference in WAR between the two is defense. The offensive WAR (which includes baserunning, correct?) is 8.6 Trout to 7.5 Cabrera. Trout is higher, but not a ‘slam-dunk’.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:10 PM
Cabrera deserves it. FACT
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:11 PM
Rolo Pretzels for the fallen comrades!!!!!!!!
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:11 PM
Just leave it alone. It’s nothing and far too much space here is taken up discussing imaginary feuds instead of sports.
I dislike when TBL writes about baseball. It doesn’t mean I don’t like Jason McIntyre or understand why he writes the way he does on that subject or others.
If it’s going to be a high school lunchroom can we at least play hacky sack?
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:11 PM
The last month Trout put up this slash line:
.292/.411/.551/.962
Not exactly not producing.
October 3rd, 2012 at 12:53 PM
oWAR does include baserunning and the positional adjustment (where Cabrera has a slight advantage). It also incorporates the ballpark differences, Angel Stadium has been one of the toughest hitting parks the last 3 seasons, so Trout actually has a higher OPS+ than Cabrera.
I’m a stat guy and I think Trout was the best player in the league, but I wont throw a fit if Cabrera wins. There’s still something cool about the Triple Crown. Let’s not go making Cabrera out to be Mo Vaughn or Juan Gonzalez, he’s been the 2nd best hitter in baseball over the last decade behind Pujols.
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:04 PM
Mike Trout is worth 10 wins? His replacement would be Bourjous. If Miggy ain’t playing 3B. Don Kelly or Ryan Raburn are playing 3B. If that were to play out. Tiger wins probably 15 less games.
“Let’s decide the MVP based on which guy’s replacement sucks most.”
I’d guess that many unreasonable people can get behind this idea.
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:09 PM
Well said Redick.
Cabrera’s been a great player and will get votes based on multiple years of work, so I think he wins and that’s cool.
I personally like Trout as a player, how he hustles and how he seems to spark that team regularly. I prefer the singles+doubles/speed/stealing-bases version of baseball over power/HRs so that makes me biased as well.
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:13 PM
If MLB doesn’t think that schedule strength is important enough to determine playoff teams (see unbalanced scheduling), then the unbalanced weight of pitching faced during the year can’t be an argument.
I side with SC here. Neither pick is dumb. They’ve both had unbelievably spectacular years. A tie would honestly be just to both. Now, if anyone votes for anyone except those 2 as 1 & 2 this year, that person(s) should have their writing credentials pulled permanently.
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:15 PM
Looks likes I missed a gem today
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:18 PM
Everbody’s taking sides now but nobody will care when the awards are announced 3 months from now.
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:25 PM
I grew up watching Greg Nettles play 3rd base for the Yankees and Howard Johnson play 3rd base for a few years for the Mets, so I’ve seen greatness and horrid 3rd Base play. Cabrera is average. Yes, I think it’s ridiculous to knock Cabrera for not being a base stealer in comparison to Trout when that has never been a part of his game. Trout having more stolen bases is a good argument over who is the better 5 tool player, of which most people would say Trout. But it has nothing to do with who has been the most valuable player in the AL this year, which Cabrera as he showed in September.
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:39 PM
I’ve been going back and forth over this since Labor Day. I wanna pick Cabrera (since it’s been so long since a Triple Crown achiever).
Howeva, the few times I’ve watched Trout he impacts the game in many ways. He reminds me so much of an in-his-prime Rickey Henderson. He is one of the few “must watch” guys in the game right now.
When he starts referring to himself in third person, he’ll be on his way.
Too bad a lot of his games end after my bed time…
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:43 PM
Trout having more stolen bases is a good argument over who is the better 5 tool player, of which most people would say Trout. But it has nothing to do with who has been the most valuable player
So it impacts the game but offers no value?
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:47 PM
Remember when stat nerds thought stolen bases and defense were hopelessly overrated?
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:48 PM
As for the late inning hypothetical posed earlier, It’d be a tough choice, but in a one run game, I’m taking Cabrera every time because he has a much higher chance of scoring that run without needing any help from anybody else.
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:51 PM
of course it does. It offers value, but in THIS case,not overriding value.
October 3rd, 2012 at 1:52 PM
Hello straw man, whatcha knowin’?
What you’re probably thinking of is the idea that in the before time unsuccessful stolen base attempts weren’t villified as much as they should have been…outs are a precious thing, sadly there are still too many managers that don’t understand this when calling for the sac bunt in the 3rd inning
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:01 PM
Stolen bases werent overrated. Low OBP-leadoff hitters whose only value was stealing bases were overrated (remember Brian Hunter).
And defense wasnt overrated, it just wasnt meaningly quantifiable until recently (and defensive metrics still have a ways to go, but it’s WAY better than what we’ve had in the past.)
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:01 PM
Trout at his best is a one-man wrecking show. If I had to bet one who has more homers over the next 5 years, I might consider Trout over Cabrera. Trout could lead the league in HRs, I’d think. Not only that, but Trout can easily turn a single into an XBH with baserunning/SBs.
I’m sucked in by the triple crown and the playoffs. I just am. Sorry to the crazy Angels fans who freak out over the idea that highest WAR doesn’t win, but Cabrera gets it for the triple crown, and as a lifetime achievement award. If Trout has an identical season next year, he wins it.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:02 PM
And the beauty of it is there are people still working on making them better, they don’t just go “Yep, the RBI title matters” and then use snark against those who suggest otherwise
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:02 PM
I’ll trust defensive WAR when someone explains how it is derived, and how positional value is derived.
The best fielding 1B vs the worst fielding 1B probably doesn’t make nearly as big a difference as a SS or C or CF would, right?
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:05 PM
OT: for the first time ever, Teddy Roosevelt just won the President’s Race at Nationals’ Park (with a deft assist from an ersatz Phillie Phanatic). History made in D.C.!
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:06 PM
Is there a weighted RBI % stat? Weighted by outs/baserunners? I feel like to some degree, RE24 is my favorite stat. It is actually something I derived before I knew RE24 existed, only in my version, I gave credit/fault to baserunners as well, so it really just measured how many of your appearances had a positive vs. negative impact on the game. It gives value to RBI, but also to moving runners, etc. It also negates the “RBI possibilities” because it subtracts the baseline “expected” runs for whoever is on base.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:07 PM
Hello straw man, whatcha knowin’?
No way man, I seen Money Ball, that’s what they did!
In all seriousness, if I had a vote, it’d be for Trout. But I do think Cabrera is a little better at 3B than he gets credit for. Also, winning the triple crown is a crazy achievement, but it’s sort of like hitting for the cycle, it’s more of a bizarre statistical feat than a measure of who’s the best baseball player.
One part about this that bums me out is that I feel like this has forced to sabermetric guys to pick apart Cabrera’s monster season, rather than appreciate how awesome he’s been this year.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:08 PM
It’s about time he realized that “walking softly” was a losing strategy for the race.
/carrying a big stick always is a good idea though
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:11 PM
Don’t take this personally, but that is just beyond stupid.
I said this last week and I’ll repeat it. The cycle has very little positive predictive value to offensive success. When is the last triple crown winner who wasn’t in the top 3 in WAR, or any other objective measure of offensive success. It certainly isn’t the absolute predictor of ‘best player’ but it’s pretty damn good at it, and hardly a bizarre feat.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:14 PM
Yaz when he won the triple crown had a WAR of 9.5 (Killebrew was 2nd at 6.9)
Robinson 1966 (8.6 to 6.6)
Mantle 1956 (10.4 to 5.7)
Williams 1947 (9.6 to 5.4… fuck Joe D)
Williams 1942 (9.7 to 6.1… Joe D was 4th, fuck Joe D)
If anything, Cabrera may be the FIRST triple crown winner to not lead the league in O-WAR
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:17 PM
And this really illustrates how insane Trout’s season has been.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:21 PM
Yep. I’m still going Cabrera now though.
Since 1900, every triple crown winner in both leagues has led the league in O-WAR,and only Chuck Klein in 1933 led by less than 1.0 (0.8)
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:23 PM
the only edge cabrera has is postseason qualification. i vote trout for the complete player
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:24 PM
I just mean that the cycle isn’t indicative of the best offensive output, but their is a catchy name for it and it makes the SportsCenter top 10 plays when it happens. Sort of like (but on a much smaller scale) the triple crown isn’t necessarily representative of the best offensive season (as the advanced stats have shown us) but it has a catchy name and makes you an instant MVP candidate. They are both cool achievements that are not close to comprable in difficulty, but the arbitrary “triple crown” tag was long ago applied to these three stats. As someone said earlier, if Josh Hamilton goes out and hits two home runs tonight, and Cabrera doesn’t win the triple crown, is he magically less valuable to the Tigers?
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:26 PM
2012 AL MCP, Mike Trout!
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:27 PM
But I do think Cabrera is a little better at 3B than he gets credit for.
Mark Reynolds and Ryan Braun are the only people to ever be as bad at 3B as Cabrera gets credit for
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:27 PM
so we’re hung up on the word valuable. it’s semantics, not stats
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:28 PM
You know how you memorize stupid things like triple crown winners when you are a kid? (OK…if you’re a total dork you do these things) Anyway, I just now realized that Heinie Zimmerman was stripped of the Triple Crown due to miscounted RBI’s. How did I miss this?
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:30 PM
Did you read what I wrote at all, or are you just desperately clinging to your illogical rhetoric. EVERY triple crown winner since 1878 has leg the league in offensive WAR. What stats are you looking at which suggest that the triple crown winner HASN’T had the best offensive season?
I don’t think you understand the logic of the argument you are making. I was saying TRIPLE CROWN = ALMOST ALWAYS TOP OFFENSIVE PLAYER
That is saying “not winning the triple crown doesn’t mean he didn’t have a great season”… which is true, but completely irrelevant to anything I said.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:30 PM
TAKE AWAY HIS MVP!
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:33 PM
i’m guessing because this is a season-based award, value is not as easy to determine as ‘who would you rather have on your team?’ most everyone would say trout, right, for his age if nothing else
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:34 PM
What stats are you looking at which suggest that the triple crown winner HASN’T had the best offensive season?
The one’s that have Mike Trout ahead of Cabrera in oWAR this season.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:35 PM
I agree with this to a point, though the sample size is much larger. The TC doesnt cover the entire spectrum of offensive skills. in particular it ignores BB’s, SB’s, and to a lesser extent 2B’s/3B’s (2B’s correlate somewhat with all 3 TC stats, and 3B’s are so rare in modern baseball they rarely play a factor, though it’s worth noting Trout has 8).
Actually HR and RBI correlate so highly that it’s practically redundant to include them in the triple crown. AVG, HR, and BB/SB would make more sense if you’re trying to capture “all-around” offensive prowess.
Trout has 2 main things going against him – 1) Lack of RBI and 2) Team not in playoffs. Without looking i’d guess very few players won an MVP without reaching the postseason or finishing top 5 in RBI. The fact that he’s even in the discussion tells you how far we’ve come in analyzing the game.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:38 PM
Heinie Zimmerman is a great name
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:38 PM
And league minimum salary. He’d be #1 overall pick in a total re-draft. No one has taken this bait Vez, and maybe you will, though I’m pretty sure you refused last time.
For giving Trout 15 year (essentially lifetime) contract, given the injury/success risks, and guarantees, etc…
what is the HIGHEST number the Angels would say yes to, and the LOWEST number Trout would say yes to.
For example: anything below $200MM, the Angels sign, and anything about $250MM Trout would jump at.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:38 PM
TRIPLE CROWN = ALMOST ALWAYS TOP OFFENSIVE PLAYER
Yes, ALMOST, as in, not this year. That’s why I don’t buy the “Triple Crown = MVP” logic. Because Trout has had a better year this year even though Cabrera is likely to win the triple crown.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:40 PM
Thanks for proving my point. So 13/14, and the exception has him 2nd. I’m not so sure WAR has as good a success rate at identifying the best offensive player. It’s a bit artificial, sure… but the Triple Crown is exceptional at almost always identifying the best offensive player in a league. Perhaps even more so than WAR.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:43 PM
Yes, so WAR is much better… and 13/14 times, the triple crown agrees with WAR, meaning that while all those other stats are nice, HRs and batting average have the most impact on being a great offensive player, no matter what the stat. Which is my point, that in no way is it bizarre or a stretch. You could say “EVERY TRIPLE CROWN WINNER SHOULD BE MVP” and never make a bad choice. That is incredible positive predictive value, and from a mathematical perspective, is far less involved and uses far less computing power to do so.
If you look at organ transplants, you could match for 100 different epitopes, or you could basically just look at HLA and get nearly the same prediction of match, without nearly the cost.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:44 PM
As long as you believe WAR is the utlimate measure of offensive output, which puts a lot of stock into a stat you don’t really understand.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:46 PM
If you went back and gave the MVP to the person who had the best combined HR/BA ranks, how many times would you pick someone not in the top 5 in WAR?
WAR is fine, but if you just want to automatically give it to the guy with the best WAR, what the fuck is the point of having an MVP vote. And if you argue for Trout because of WAR, but then also add in an argument for SB/BB/Defense, you are double-dipping entirely.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:53 PM
WWOS, I’m not sure what exactly you think we were arguing about. I guess in my original loose comparison of the cycle and the triple crown, I should have used the word “rare” instead of “bizarre”.
I just don’t think triple crown automatically = MVP. I also said it doesn’t NECESSARILY mean best offensive season, which you yourself have demonstrated. Obviously if you lead the league in a bunch of offensive statistics you are going to have a high oWAR.
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:56 PM
If it’s not BBQ I’m totally lost right now
October 3rd, 2012 at 2:57 PM
i have no problem with Cabrera winning it, and there’s a part of me that’s sad that our obsession with advanced statistics has sapped a lot of the joy out of possibly the first TC winner in my lifetime.
I dont think it’s that he leads in WAR, i think it’s that he leads by such a wide margin that even the measurement errors/disagreements in defensive value could not possibly explain the difference. If you look at the NL MVP vote the top guys are so close that a subjective evaluation is required. Not so with Trout/Cabrera – to vote Cabrera you’re basically saying one of two things – a) a player’s non-hitting contributions don’t matter, or b) the TC trumps everything else. I think in this case it’s more B than A.
October 3rd, 2012 at 3:02 PM
I had a “memphis” BBQ taco at a local joint and it had fucking BBQ sauce on it. Are you fucking kidding me????
As for what we are arguing about, I conceded at the start Trout had a better offensive season. Doesn’t mean I give him the MVP just for having highest WAR. And I wouldnt give Cabrera MVP just for Triple Crown.
VJR – playoffs matter to a lot of people. As does age and history in the league. I’m okay with a little bit of “wait your turn” to Trout. It’s even more common in the NHL, I think.
October 3rd, 2012 at 3:05 PM
WAR is fine, but if you just want to automatically give it to the guy with the best WAR, what the fuck is the point of having an MVP vote. And if you argue for Trout because of WAR, but then also add in an argument for SB/BB/Defense, you are double-dipping entirely
I’ve read more about this in a week than anything in my life. This paragraph wins, so let’s wrap this up and go have a beer.
/no coop
October 3rd, 2012 at 3:07 PM
All I’m arguing is that to dismiss the TC as an anomaly is insane. IF you had TC = auto MVP, you’d have never made a really bad choice, even though that certainly isnt the history of the triple crown.
The “Trout missed April” argument is pretty bad. In the extra 60 PAs Cabrera had, he made like 55 more outs or something. Plus WAR is cumulative over games played and so it kind of erases that.
Most statistical arguments favor Trout, from slightly (offensive production) to strongly (defense/baserunning). I just might not give it to him anyway. I just can’t stand to see people argue that the triple crown is irrelevant, because it has never ever ever not predicted a top 2 player in OWAR.
And really, anyone in top 5 in the league in WAR should be able to win MVP without a ton of controversy, though I understand Trout’s huge lead argues against that.
October 3rd, 2012 at 3:08 PM
I’m strangely OK with the wait-your-turn thing as well which is a part of my lack of outrage for Cabrera. I’ve always thought the playoffs argument is dumb, cant control who your teammates are (esp. if you are a rookie coming up through an organization), and it’s not like Trout hasnt been playing meaningful games in September.
I also dont want to see the award turn into “Who has the best WAR” award, but it’s no dumber than the “who has the most RBI” award that it’s been for much of its existence.
October 3rd, 2012 at 3:08 PM
I’m headed to the golf course then to have a beer after before I head back into work tonight.
October 3rd, 2012 at 3:18 PM
I’m headed to the golf course then to have a beer after before I head back into work tonight.
Great beginning, horrible ending
October 3rd, 2012 at 4:41 PM
the laziest argument you’ll hear is “but cabrera led his team to the playoffs!”. Angels have more wins and played in a tougher division but I don’t expect the talking heads on ESPN and radio to do any homework.
October 3rd, 2012 at 7:49 PM
What is looking at Kat Dennings from the feet upward?
October 4th, 2012 at 11:10 PM
I’m conflicted as I have love the work of the stat nerds in trying to objectively determine who was the better player over a season/career. Especially a lifelong delusional Tiger fan who watched and marveled over Miggy’s season. The objective side of me wants Ted Williams frozen head to come back to life screaming about his offensive stats and MVP slights and vote for Trout….
But if we take the romance and history out of the game baseball loses a lot of its appeal. Heck there are two movies about Shoeless Joe. We all got a little misty when we heard about Yaz and Frank Robinson (only one of top 15 home run hitters of all time to win the Triple Crown)congratulating Miggy,or when we learned only Gehrig and Ruth matched his peculiar hitting stats from this year. Most interesting vote in years.
October 5th, 2012 at 12:36 PM
If Mike Trout is so good why didn’t the Angels make the playoffs?