Jim Schwartz No Longer the Great Fourth Down Hope, Now Just the Great Dope
Jim Schwartz used to be the Great Hope.He has an economics degree from Georgetown, and was supposed to be the future, the analytical white whale. He was a fan of Football Outsiders, and was supposed to have embraced the advanced analysis of football.
Jim Schwartz is no longer the Great Hope. He’s the Great Dope.
Yesterday, with his team trailing by two touchdowns in the third quarter, he faced a fourth and one at the Minnesota 40 yard line. If we were to line up a spectrum of when to go for it and when to not go for it, and put various scenarios on it, this one would fall at the far extreme of “under almost any circumstances imaginable, you should go for it.”
If you are a Romerian, this should be easy. To fail here would be to show your true colors–to reveal you are not a Belichickian, but a Jauronian. Schwartz punted.
Last week, you might recall, the Lions went for it on fourth and one to end the game in overtime. It was a classic showdown situation, but would have been a reasonable decision. Try to win near the goal line, rather than be an underdog in sudden death overtime by kicking off again. Schwartz, though, claimed he was just trying to pull them offsides, that he had no intention of going for it.
He’s just saying that to appease the neanderthals, the thought process went, now they’ll just blame the players. After yesterday, though, there can be no doubt. Jim Schwartz worships at the Shrine of the Almighty Punt, bathes in the Just Keep It Close Fountain, and skips through the Settle for the Field Goal Fields.
When asked today about that decision, he said “[t]hat wasn’t the make or break. We could have lost the game there but couldn’t win it there.”
Oh really? Let’s get the first thing straight: the result of that one play would neither have single-handedly won or lost the game. They were down by 14 so of course no single play can win it. They are already down by 14, so no single play can lose it.
Contrast it, though, to the only other decision that came on fourth and one at the opponent’s 40 this week. Last night, Tom Coughlin went for it at the end of the third quarter, trailing by 3, and the Giants got the ball down inside the red zone on the long completion to Victor Cruz. That one play, of course, neither won or lost the game. Despite the great result, the Giants lost, and Eli Manning threw an interception on the very next play.
The swing in win expectation, though, was huge. According to Advanced NFL Stats, the Giants went from 37% to 60% on that one big play (and back again after the INT, which reversed the results similar to a punt on 4th and 1).
Who had more to lose? Coughlin, in a 3-point game, or Schwartz, in a 14 point deficit? The answer, both logically and by the numbers, of course, is Coughlin. Had the Giants failed on that pass, the win percentage dropped from 37% to 30%, roughly 20% of his remaining chances of winning expiring with a miss.
You may be interested to know what the Lions’ various chances were, and you can use that Advanced NFL Stats calculator to see the impact. They had only a 9% chance of winning, down 14 with 10 minutes left in the third quarter, facing that 4th and 1 at the Minnesota 40. Punt it away, and the Vikings start at their own 10? Also 9%. Go for it, and fail, and give Minnesota the ball at their own 40, with a 1st and 10? It drops all the way to 8%.
That’s right–one percent change. Talk about losing the game.
Now look at the flip side, what happens if you go and make it. Merely get a few yards (and not the big gain the Giants did) and the odds of winning on that one play go up to 12%. The risk/reward is three times as strong for going because you are already a significant underdog.
Settle for a field goal in the next two minutes, and it jumps to 16% chance of making the comeback. Score a touchdown on the drive, and it leaps to 23%. So yes, you still haven’t won the game, but the chances have improved almost three fold over either punting, or failing, if you can parlay a successful conversion into a touchdown to make it a one score game.
I’m not going to dwell on this point, but remember, fourth down conversion rates favor the offense and are in the 65-70% range historically. Basically, the decision was about a 35% of failing and losing virtually nothing in terms of game win probability, or a 65% chance of swinging the odds a bit in your favor and making a comeback a little more likely.
You may find it interesting that the chances of losing don’t drop significantly by going for it. Remember, there is a difference between expected points and win probability here. Yes, the Vikings are a little more likely to score a touchdown or add a field goal after the failure. The odds are already so long that the impact is more negligible, though on the outcome. There is no point difference bonus in the NFL. The status quo favors the team in front, and punting maintains the status quo.
This wasn’t the make or break play of the game. I suppose if we lined them up, that would be the kickoff return by Harvin, or the punt return touchdown. It’s probably in the top five, though, of the most impactful plays in the game. It ultimately had no impact, though, because Jim Schwartz punted.
[photo via US Presswire]

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55 Responses to “Jim Schwartz No Longer the Great Fourth Down Hope, Now Just the Great Dope”
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October 1st, 2012 at 4:59 PM
Stats have never run for a first down, or made a tackle.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:02 PM
Is your counter that teams should always punt and play as conservative as possible? Seems like that where your loyalties lie with the football strategy
October 1st, 2012 at 5:04 PM
I was watching this game and couldn’t believe they didn’t go for it.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:05 PM
i would have gone for it on 3rd down in the Giants/Eagles game.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:08 PM
Ron Rivera’s decision making is worse.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:08 PM
So that Peterson guy is pretty much a freak of nature, no?
October 1st, 2012 at 5:09 PM
It is possible that Schwartz smells the stink on his team and figured a 4th down play would have involved Stafford throwing off his back foot to someone who’d drop it even if it got to him
October 1st, 2012 at 5:10 PM
Bit late for that. Good post though. Pretty unbelievable to punt there.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:11 PM
Stats have never run for a first down, or made a tackle.
What? If you run for a first down or make … What are you going for here, Darrell?
October 1st, 2012 at 5:11 PM
My counter is that a coach should know his team and make the decisions based on personnel and their ability. Cumulative stats make no differentiation between having the best QB, or any other position, in the League and the worst. Coughlin should have gone for it on 3rd Down last night, because he has a proven QB who he should be able to trust to make that play. Does that mean a team like KC or Buffalo should have that same type of confidence?
October 1st, 2012 at 5:11 PM
Dick Jauron thinks it’s absolutely reasonable to punt there.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:11 PM
Ron Rivera had no expectations from Lisk on making the right decision. Schwartz was Lisk’s beacon of hope.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:12 PM
So that Peterson guy is pretty much a freak of nature, no?
Bob Stoops was being interviewed on the radio once and was asked what’s the craziest thing you’ve ever seen in a weight room. Without hesitation he replied AP doing plyometric jumps onto the biggest box with a 70lb dumbbell in each hand. Insane.
/Stooooops to Notre Dame!
October 1st, 2012 at 5:13 PM
Ron Rivera has that look about him that says “I don’t know what I’m doing here.”
October 1st, 2012 at 5:13 PM
Detroit’s personnel would suggest they have an offense that should pick up a yard in its sleep
9 red zone picks since 2010 come to find out last night, I can understand his hesitation giving Eli another crack down close
October 1st, 2012 at 5:14 PM
you’re making last night hurt even more. stop!
October 1st, 2012 at 5:15 PM
Romeo Crennel
Dick Jauron
Trent Edwards
Charlie Weis
Greg Robinson
Mike Mularkey (Buffalo version)
Gregg Williams (Buffalo version)
Jim Zorn
October 1st, 2012 at 5:15 PM
this is because Eli doesn’t take sacks. it’s the opposite of Tom Brady. you are leaving out all the other success of Eli’s in the red zone, especially in the 4th quarter going back to last season.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:16 PM
You ever lived in Charlotte? It’s the only natural way to react to such a situation.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:16 PM
Lisk…I have some homework for you…
Teams, when protecting a lead with time winding down, tend to run on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down in order to keep the clock running/force timeouts before, ultimately, punting.
What is the risk/reward percentages for passing in those situations? What would Coach Lisk do?
October 1st, 2012 at 5:16 PM
That was meant to be snark…but that is an eye-opening number for a guy close to the top level
October 1st, 2012 at 5:18 PM
FIRE THIS CLOWN
/And Mayhew
October 1st, 2012 at 5:18 PM
Pat Shurmur doesn’t make it past week 7. Haslem needs to give jay Gruden a blank check in the offseason.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:19 PM
But there are many times he should take a sack. Sack could still mean points, INT equals nothing.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:19 PM
Schwartz has been horrible this season.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:20 PM
stupid snark-o-meter, broken again.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:20 PM
That said, I’m preparing to poke my eyes out with hot pokers for half a season watching that bald fuck come down from the booth and call the shots.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:20 PM
Time was a factor there, no?
I don’t think the problem was Eli making a play. I think the problem was the Eagles protecting the sidelines on a potential 3rd down, and the potential that the receiver would not be able to get out of bounds and the clock running out before Eli could get to the line to spike the ball and stop the clock.
But I could be misremembering because I was terrified in the last two minutes of that game.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:21 PM
agree, but he has also made up for it by not taking sacks and throwing a TD into tight coverage for additional points. Eli, be Eli.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:22 PM
Rivera has a double threat at QB and a dog doo doo defense. He shouldn’t have needed any statistical analyisis to tell him he should have gone for it on 4th and 1 from where he was on the field.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:22 PM
no, you’re right on your assumption. but teams are always protecting the sideline. you can always sneak a pass over the top, or just throw it away and end up in the same position any how. i would have opted to roll Eli out, if it wasn’t there, throw it away because it wouldn’t have been grounding at that point.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:22 PM
My counter is that a coach should know his team and make the decisions based on personnel and their ability. Cumulative stats make no differentiation between having the best QB, or any other position, in the League and the worst. Coughlin should have gone for it on 3rd Down last night, because he has a proven QB who he should be able to trust to make that play. Does that mean a team like KC or Buffalo should have that same type of confidence?
I agree a coach should, which makes this decision even worse.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:23 PM
Those final two minutes were a clinic in rough coaching strategy…Reid playing for a FG really should have come back to bite him in the ass, I get that Vick’s been a turnover machine but if you can’t trust a guy in that spot find someone else
October 1st, 2012 at 5:23 PM
soup beans and cornbread hell yes
October 1st, 2012 at 5:24 PM
Cam fumbled on 3rd down, right? or was that 2nd?
October 1st, 2012 at 5:24 PM
I would have gone for it on 4th and 1. That Carolina D is New Orleans bad. That was embarrassing to watch.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:24 PM
Yeah. I guess as a person who has watched a lot of football in my life it is not unbelievable at all that a coach would punt in that situation. I guess I should say it’s unbelievable that it’s not unbelievable that a coach would punt there.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:24 PM
Lions will probably be favored in two more games this season. (Jags, Colts.) 4 of the next five on the road. not looking good.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:25 PM
And to think in the offseason I had the Lions in the Super Bowl … glad I changed that pick.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:25 PM
3rd, than it was 4th and 1 and the backed Atlanta up on the 1 with no time outs. The rest is history. Rivera fucking sucks.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:26 PM
Teams, when protecting a lead with time winding down, tend to run on 1st, 2nd, and 3rd down in order to keep the clock running/force timeouts before, ultimately, punting.
What is the risk/reward percentages for passing in those situations? What would Coach Lisk do?
I can make it part of a future post, but it obviously depends on the specific situation and just importantly the opponent. I’m not going to bleed the Patriots of an extra timeout and concede the ball back to Brady, I’m trying to get a first down such that I can end the game with my offense kneeling down.
Against a different team, I might run early to get clock started and timeouts burned, but still be willing to throw on third down if I trust my QB to not make a bone headed play. I believe interception rate on third down with lead late is less than 1%.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:26 PM
Speaking of pat shurmur…where’s spencer been lately?
October 1st, 2012 at 5:27 PM
Was pretty disheartening to see Mike Smith go for it on 4th and 1 at crucial late game situations last year and fail both times. Wish the play call for those plays were a little more thought out. I generally like him as a coach. Just sucks that it gave the coaches with the tight sphincters more ammunition.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:28 PM
Is there a way to assess if decisions of this nature are noticably different between offensive/defensive minded head coaches? Rivera and Schwartz could just be the type that always wants to believe their defense will make the stop whereas guys like Mike McCarthy seem to be supporters of going for the juggular
October 1st, 2012 at 5:28 PM
He texted me after the Browns game. Asking me somrthing about “up the road or across the street?” I wasn’t sure what he was referring too. Haven’t heard from him since.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:29 PM
This is the kind of stuff Eagles fans talk about when they get upset about Reid. He should have had Vick lined up in shotgun. No idea why he had him under center on that 3rd down play.
Also, the whole “icing the kicker” thing. If the Eagles lost that game because Larry Tynes had two bites at the apple, fans would have have jumped off the Walt Whitman bridge.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:29 PM
I definitely popped a stiffy when McCarthy went for the fake punt on his own 20 yesterday.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:29 PM
Selling shady stocks and was brought down by the FBI…think Boiler Room only he didn’t get out like Vin Diesel
October 1st, 2012 at 5:34 PM
i picked the lions to miss the playoffs
October 1st, 2012 at 5:35 PM
Thanks for the response Lisk.
October 1st, 2012 at 5:36 PM
juggalo-ar
October 1st, 2012 at 5:37 PM
I can make it part of a future post, but it obviously depends on the specific situation and just importantly the opponent
And faith in the QB not to piss down their leg on what should be an easy dump off.
/Hi, Dayne Crist!!!
October 1st, 2012 at 5:58 PM
Maybe when it comes to fourth downs, but his playcalling would indicate otherwise.
There were plenty of times last season where horrible Mccarthy playcalling let the opponent back into the game. He gets conservative at the worst times.
October 1st, 2012 at 8:32 PM
Easterbrook is on line one, he’d like his meme back if you’re done with it.
October 1st, 2012 at 9:18 PM
missing the playoffs is the best thing that could happen to this team. The fact they did not fire their defensive co-ordinator in the off season is totally retarded. They are young enough and good enough when they have the ball to be playoff threats for years. Fire that shit show Cunningham…NOW….during the bye week to show you are serious.