Tim Lincecum is on Pace for Largest Decline at Age 28, But Plenty of Others Provide Cause for Hope … or Concern
Last month, the Giants lost their ninth straight game with Tim Lincecum on the mound, and I wrote about his struggles. Right after that, he put together two straight quality starts, including getting his third win of the season against the Dodgers. His last two starts before the All-Star Break were a disaster, though. He didn’t get through the 4th inning in either, and his ERA has ballooned back above 6.
Here are his full season numbers: 18 Games Started, 3-10, 6.42 ERA, 1.58 WHIP
He’s leading the league in losses right now. That earned run average is ugly. His velocity on the fastball is down and has been for a while. The Giants and Lincecum have denied any injuries, and he has continued to make every start, but the results are staggering. Last month, Jim Bowden raised the possibility of checking for an injury even if Lincecum is not feeling pain.
So, how unusual is this rapid decline for Tim Lincecum? The answer depends on how we define the decline. I can’t find anyone with as large a decline as Lincecum from his earlier baseline, but we still have half a season to go. Plenty of really notable pitchers have had an off year at age 28 and/or 29 where they were below average, after being one of the game’s best up until that point.
For example, Jim Palmer had a stretch somewhat similar to Lincecum in 1974 at age 28. From the end of April to mid-June in 1974 the Orioles went 1-8 in games he started, and he was shut down for two months with an elbow injury.
I enjoyed looking back through the old pitchers, for nuggets like getting to read about Noodles Hahn, a young phenom who retired a century ago with a dead arm before age 27. However, with apologies to Dizzy Dean and Ed Reulbach and Ernie Shore, I limited the rest of my look to players since the end of World War II. To find drop-offs before age 30, I took the best pitchers from age 23 to 27, and found those with the biggest decline in league-adjusted ERA at age 28 or 29.
Twenty names appeared on the final list, though we don’t know about Jake Peavy yet, and he just rebounded for an All-Star appearance after several years of injury struggles. In addition to Palmer, there are several notable names. Steve Carlton and Luis Tiant both led the league in losses at age 28 and had off-years where they were average pitchers at best. Don Drysdale had a losing record and below average ERA at age 29. Some notable pitchers changed teams and flopped: Mike Hampton to Colorado at age 28, and Barry Zito to San Francisco at age 29. Others fell off with serious injuries: Dean Chance, Mark Mulder, Bret Saberhagen.
The largest ERA decline was Robin Roberts, though Lincecum would need to recover to a low t0 mid 4 ERA to match that. Roberts gives some hope because the young Phillies phenom went through a down period in his late twenties (led league in losses twice, at 29 and 30), but did recover to pitch well in his thirties, last starting 20 games at age 38.
Will Lincecum recover? The hope has to be that he has a bit of a “dead arm” but no long term structural damage, and can rebound. Among the others who had a drop off, both the size of the decline from the previous baseline from ages 23 to 27, and the games played in the decline season were related to the chance of recovery. Of the five that started fewer than twenty games in the year they declined (indicative of injury), three never started twenty games again–Dean Chance, Mario Soto, and Mark Mulder.
You can find what you want in this list. You want hope, there are pitchers who rebounded. You want cause for concern, there’s plenty of that, too. Here is a summary of the remaining careers of the other pitchers with a drop off at age 28 or 29.
5 NEVER RECOVERED (No Other Seasons Of 20+ Starts, above average ERA)
Hal Newhouser (29), Dean Chance (29), Sam McDowell (29), Mario Soto (29), Mark Mulder (28)
6 PRETTY MUCH DONE, SMALL REBOUND (2 or Fewer Seasons of 20+ Starts, above average ERA)
Jim Maloney (28), Don Drysdale (29), Mike Hampton (28), Barry Zito (29), Bill “Spaceman” Lee (28), Mark Gubicza (28)
3 RECOVERED TO BE PRETTY GOOD IN THIRTIES (3 to 5 Seasons of 20+ Starts, above average ERA)
Robin Roberts (29), Dave Stieb (28), Bret Saberhagen (28)
5 WERE VERY GOOD IN THEIR THIRTIES (6 or more Seasons of 20+ Starts, above average ERA)
Steve Carlton (28), Bert Blyleven (29), Jim Palmer (28), Luis Tiant (28), Jimmy Key (28)
[photo via US Presswire]

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59 Responses to “Tim Lincecum is on Pace for Largest Decline at Age 28, But Plenty of Others Provide Cause for Hope … or Concern”
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July 11th, 2012 at 2:34 PM
The Pitcher formerly known as Fausto Carmona > Lincecum?
July 11th, 2012 at 2:37 PM
Blyleven! THAT COMPILER
July 11th, 2012 at 2:43 PM
I like the theme of what you did here Lisk, especially finding some comparisons. My questions to the baseball crowd would be:
-Wins/Losses shouldn’t be used, at all, right?
-What has been his fastballl decline and for how long has this been going on? He’s been a bit of a power guy, no?
Seems to me (new to advanced stats) that the most logical would be the high volume pitches he’s thrown over the past 4-5 years on his small frame are catching up to him?
July 11th, 2012 at 2:43 PM
See, this is why I won’t be able to take part in this one.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:45 PM
Hal Newhouser
He has the most HR for a pitcher?
July 11th, 2012 at 2:46 PM
that’d be non George Herman Division…
July 11th, 2012 at 2:47 PM
gotta imagine the drugs are playing a substantial role in his decline.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:48 PM
At this point, I’m praying it’s some type of injury.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:49 PM
He didn’t get through the 4th inning in either, and his ERA has ballooned back above 6.
I’d mention here that the last one was against the Pirates. He must be really bad, since that team is terrible.
/TBL
July 11th, 2012 at 2:49 PM
Ok….here’s the real question. Let’s say you have Lincecum in a dynasty league. You have to keep him for at least one more year, right?
July 11th, 2012 at 2:49 PM
Great name for a pitcher, or greatest name ever for a pitcher?
That’s what happens when the real players come back from wartime service
As a Braves fan, let me add: Grrrr.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:49 PM
That was Newcombe, not Newhouse, sorry. ALso, I was wrong.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:50 PM
clown – not sure when im going back to CR but i may need your espanol skills on my next visit. i left with $700 in outstanding speeding tickets last time (bogus!). how do you think you’ll fair in as my representation in a CR courtroom?
July 11th, 2012 at 2:50 PM
Good post, Lisk.
I delved into Timmy’s FX stuff after you mentioned you were writing this. From 2007-2011, Lincecum recorded 36.2% of his outs on sliders. In April of this year, he stopped throwing the pitch for the most part. He threw 1,066 sliders last year. This year, it’s just 292. Taking away a pitch that got over a third of his outs is definitely shouldering some of the blame here. That was just on balls in play too. He got 23.12% of his swinging strikeouts on slider over the course of 2007-2011. This year, it’s around the same percentage of his outs, but he’s obviously not getting as many swings and missed.
You mentioned the velocity thing too. It’s down about 1.7 MPH this year so the differentiation from his fastball/sinker to his changeup is only ~7 MPH whereas in years past it was normally around 10 MPH. I don’t know if he’s done or not, but that small body seems less likely to rebound, especially with those mechanics, than a larger pitcher with standard mechanics.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:51 PM
Ok….here’s the real question. Let’s say you have Lincecum in a dynasty league. You have to keep him for at least one more year, right?
No, you dump him for nothing. Then, you trade for him at the next All-Star Break, presumably, also for nothing. Then, he will have a good two months so he can sign a 4 year $70 million deal with the Cubs. Then you unload him again.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:51 PM
I like the theme of what you did here Lisk, especially finding some comparisons. My questions to the baseball crowd would be:
-Wins/Losses shouldn’t be used, at all, right?
-What has been his fastballl decline and for how long has this been going on? He’s been a bit of a power guy, no?
Seems to me (new to advanced stats) that the most logical would be the high volume pitches he’s thrown over the past 4-5 years on his small frame are catching up to him?
Just for the record, I didn’t use wins and losses to identify the best pitchers and the declines. I used ERA+ and dips in league adjusted ERA solely. I did use leading the league in losses to describe that others did have bad seasons.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:52 PM
Hey, it’s just weed, and everyone knows weed doesn’t fuck up performance.
Right, Spencer?
I like Timmy Jimmy because he rides his bike around Cow Hollow and buys rounds of drinks at Mauna Loa.
/ Fuck the Marina
July 11th, 2012 at 2:53 PM
The danger of going year-to-year with arbitration, and not inking the long-term contract. Worked out for Papelbon. Gonna cost this kid $50 million? More?
July 11th, 2012 at 2:53 PM
Not sure where my jamband listners are, but the String Cheese shows from Red Rocks are awesome! Thinking hard about picking them up, so if I do i’ll drop a link to a download for them if people want them.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:54 PM
Actually… I guess he’s signed two years (through 2013), so if he recovers next year he’ll be okay. Still as a snapshot in time, looks bad right now to have turned down $100 million or whatever.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:54 PM
34% of Lincecum’s pitches this season are fastballs. Sub-par fastballs. Add in his sinker and it’s over 50% of total pitches thrown. It’s not a dominant pitch for him like it used to be. In fact, the whiff rate on those pitches is just 7.64% (fastball) and 6.61% (sinker) in 2012. He’s getting called strikes about 20% of the time when he throws them this year. About 14% of those pitches are being put in play. Over 40% of the time, they are hit hard (line drive rate).
None of that is good.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:55 PM
Timmy – up until a week or two ago, I always thought that wordpress image next to your name was some hollywood chick. Seriously, never put 2 and 2 together that the image was Lincecum.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:55 PM
When’s Fausto coming back? Drop Gomez and keep rocking Zack Mack.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:56 PM
Pretty sure David Duval holds that record.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:56 PM
Reminds me of how when the Cain/Maine/Rich Hill trio of rookies were around in 2005, I liked Rich Hill the best of all, because of his curveball.
/as always, I’m wrong
July 11th, 2012 at 2:57 PM
SC-
Here was a quote from the Bowden link, related to sliders:
“In my mind, Lincecum is hurt without pain or has some shoulder weakness that is causing him to miss his intended locations. Curiously, Lincecum said something to me back in March that threw up a red flag. He said he was going to scrap his slider because of the wear and tear on his arm. I didn’t understand what he meant by that. Why was his slider causing wear and tear but not his fastball? Did something hurt when he threw his slider? Well, he ended up keeping his slider anyway, but it made me wonder about his health nonetheless.”
July 11th, 2012 at 2:57 PM
Has he said why he quit throwing his slider as much?
July 11th, 2012 at 2:57 PM
/knocks on wood for Jon Lester
July 11th, 2012 at 2:58 PM
Vlad – who knows when Roberto Hernández will come back. However, I’d take his W-L and ERA right now over a number of our guys.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:59 PM
Not sure where my jamband listners are, but the String Cheese shows from Red Rocks are awesome!
their show in telluride a few years back is still one of the best i have been to.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:59 PM
Wrong. It was the Big Bopper.
July 11th, 2012 at 2:59 PM
SC – all of that is great stuff.
Lisk – yeah I know how you segregated that, I think that was the best way since some of the modern metrics aren’t there for historical basis.
Still as a snapshot in time, looks bad right now to have turned down $100 million or whatever.
If he can guy out some average stats last year, he can probably get a majority of that (only takes 1 offer).
July 11th, 2012 at 3:00 PM
+1. This never gets old, or less inappropriate.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:00 PM
My dad played high school baseball with Sam McDowell.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:01 PM
That was a red flag to me too, Lisk. I knew when he decided to take that out of his rotation that he was having some sort of arm issue. You don’t just take out your best strikeout pitch (non-fastball division) unless there’s something wrong. Like Bowden said, he’s kept it in the repertoire a bit but he doesn’t throw it nearly as much as he used to. Thing is, he’s thrown 97 of them with two strikes. 100 of them on a 0-1 count. With all the data available now, you have to think that coaches or whoever looks at this type of stuff are telling hitters to sit fastball early in the count and only look for the breaking ball with 0-1 counts or with 2 strikes. He has thrown a grand total of 2 sliders on the first pitch of an AB. His percentage of offspeed stuff period in the first pitch of an AB is under 10%. You can sit dead-red on his fastball to start an AB.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:03 PM
MP – was it this show by chance? I can only find this one and the following night at http://www.livecheese.com. These were both from 04′; does that sound right to you?
July 11th, 2012 at 3:04 PM
Has he said why he quit throwing his slider as much?
He went to a new pitch, The Eliminator.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:06 PM
SC, nicely done with the FX stuff. That quote from him about “protecting my elbow” in the preseason was frightening right from the get-go.
It’s all pretty mysterious, considering the Giants constant chorus of “he’s healthy”.
No idea where his career goes from here. Lisk did a nice historical study, but I wouldn’t say it’s predictive in any sense.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:07 PM
I just happened to look up Walter Johnson’s FB velocity. Hardest thrower of his time… and he hit 91 mph in a lab test in 1917.
In 1910, he led the league in starts (42) and CGs (38). Convention has made everyone so conservative with pitchers, both in starts and innings. Is it just that you have to throw so much harder to get the ball by the hitters now? Is it an increased number of breaking balls? If Babe Ruth was in the league today, could he even hit .250?
July 11th, 2012 at 3:07 PM
He’s having a down year, but it’s not as bad as it looks.
His LOB% is really low and his BABIP is high. Both (former more than latter) have elements of luck.
He’s striking out a bunch of guys, and his stuff is still good (swinging strike % is as high as it’s ever been).
It’s still frustrating, and I hate him. #fantasy
July 11th, 2012 at 3:07 PM
Lisk, after doing all the research, where do you stand on Timmy returning to form?
July 11th, 2012 at 3:08 PM
MP – was it this show by chance? I can only find this one and the following night at http://www.livecheese.com. These were both from 04′; does that sound right to you?
nope, april 2002 (i forget i have been out of college for 10 years). we had to ski to the venue, and they played a great set. outside/inside just came out, and i love that whole CD.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:08 PM
Only if Ted Ginn becomes pitching coach.
/yesterday
July 11th, 2012 at 3:09 PM
Is there where I file a formal complaint against Matt Moore?
July 11th, 2012 at 3:09 PM
it might be worth while to just shut him down for a couple weeks, if it’s in his head or he just can’t get out of a rut, getting away from it might help.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:10 PM
Well, his K/9 is good. But he’s also facing way too many hitters.
He’s always been bad at keeping runners at first base. Anyone could steal on him. It didn’t matter too much when he could strike out anyone, anytime. But that’s the case this year.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:10 PM
Couldn’t believe the Giants record given his struggles this year. If you shut him down, you’re really not losing anything.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:12 PM
I’ve got one for fantasy guys. AL-only, 4×4 keeper auction.
I’m trying to win it this year.
I have been offered Ellsbury, Youk, Texeira, and Haren (all with expiring contracts) for Hosmer ($18) and Adam Jones ($26).
The most ground I could make up is in HR, RBI, ERA, and WHIP. Thoughts? Anyone?
July 11th, 2012 at 3:12 PM
This is a really bad sign for Timmy. Simple graphs are good graphs.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:15 PM
I’d keep the younguns. Haren is a historically bad pitcher in the 2nd half. You could make up a ton of ground in the offensive categories though. I’m actually in the same boat in terms of categories to make up ground. Toss in Quality Starts and I need those 5 to make up 20 points in a rotisserie league that is 8×8.
Tex and Youk should have solid 2nd halves. Who knows on Jacoby. Shoulder injuries are weird.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:15 PM
his performance this year isn’t any worse than a 6th starter, miss a few starts and see what happens then.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:17 PM
Here’s another graph that could explain it. The frequency of sliders last year could have torn up that arm. That’s a TON of sliders compared to years past.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:21 PM
If Ted Ginn had been his pitching coach, John Rocker would have never gone off the rails.
/ While riding next to the guy with the purple hair, the guy with AIDS, the unemployed guy with four kids, etc.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:23 PM
Is it just that you have to throw so much harder to get the ball by the hitters now?
First off, athletes are better trained and (like society, bigger,). Next, old dudes didn’t wear helmets so you could be more effective backing guys off. Also, I think some of the spitshine balls and stuff made things a bit crazier then too. Game balls are a bit better today as well. Also, the heighetened mound gave all pitches a bit more movement. I’d guess his speed was maybe a bit better than, but also it was a bit better compared to his peers.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:25 PM
I think Timmy’s arm is jacked and that is bad news all around. But I was looking at Cliff Lee’s stats as he had a year in the minors when he sucked in CLE (came back and won the Cy Young the next year).
I saw Lee had a 10-1 SO/BB ratio in 2010. Sick.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:31 PM
All of what Script pointed out, plus the dead ball era was just so different. Home Run Baker led the majors in HR four straight seasons with 11, 10, 12 and 9. And the single-season record for HR was 24 before the Babe Ruth “live ball” era.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:33 PM
Oh, I’m definitely trading guys with “A” health grades for guys (except for Tex) who are scary.
It’s an extremely deep league, so adding an extra legit hitter is a big deal in that he’s taking over a spot currently occupied by Brooks Conrad.
Haven’t pulled the trigger yet. All these guys I would have “right of last refusal” on their auction value next year. Meaning even though I can’t keep them at their current salary, when they are auctioned I could keep them for $1 more than they are auctioned for.
July 11th, 2012 at 3:43 PM
Goddammit, it’s the long toss, isn’t it? If Dylan Bundy is only good for 6 years or so, I’m going to… I guess I’ll probably be fine with that because the 7th year he’ll be on the Yankees anyway.
July 11th, 2012 at 4:10 PM
Impressive stuff SC. Good work Lisk.