2014 World Cup in Brazil: Five Early Favorites
Euro 2012 is over. Here is a brief look ahead to the World Cup in 2014. Here are our five favorites in order of probability.
Spain: Three major trophies. Ten-straight knockout rounds without conceding. Spain are the favorites until they are dethroned. Their core squad should be young enough to make one more run, at least. Striker could be a bit of a question mark. The Spanish may have to replace Xavi Hernandez, who will be 34 in 2014. It sounds like he wants to play, but if he can’t that could be a major loss.
Brazil: Home can be a tremendous advantage. In a country such as Brazil, it can also ramp up excruciating pressure. After the failure of the 11 Dungas in South Africa, Brazil will load up to bring the sex. Mano Manezes looks set to hand the keys off to the Neymar generation. His most recent friendly call ups included just two players over 25 and none with more than 30 caps. The squad will be loaded, but whether they have the savvy to pull off a World Cup win will remain a question.
Germany: Their Euro 2012 exit, especially in concert with their other near misses, will hurt. That said, they can return the same ridiculous squad for 2014, minus Miroslav Klose. Philipp Lahm, at 30, would be the oldest outfield player. Capability did not fell the Germans. It was continuity and execution. If they can deploy their attacking talent more coherently by 2014, look out.
Argentina: The Argentines face the same dilemma they faced in 2010: accommodate Messi or accommodate everyone? They are loaded, almost too loaded, up front and can at least be decent at the back. Under their second coach post-Maradona, Argentina are still under construction. Alejandro Sabella has fielded six different formations in nine matches. If he can find the right combination though…
Italy: The Italians exceeded pre-tournament expectations, reminding everyone never to count them out. If Prandelli stays in the job, they can return much of the same squad, except for Di Natale and probably Andrea Pirlo. If Giuseppe Rossi and Fabio Borini mature as expected, they could have even more attacking talent to pair with Super Mario. Italy won’t be outright favorites, but they are always dangerous.
[Photo via Getty]

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214 Responses to “2014 World Cup in Brazil: Five Early Favorites”
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July 3rd, 2012 at 1:10 PM
Needs more Uruguay.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:11 PM
Was gonna say that, and needs more Mexico.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:12 PM
Rossi has a better chance of never playing again than being a factor in Brazil. Not sure what expectations those are at this point.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:13 PM
Nope, I’m pulling for Paraguay, if it means that big-hootered chick will parade down the street naked.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:14 PM
Well, somebody’s gotta be a redshirt in the round of 16.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:15 PM
I’m going with England.
/ EIC’d
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:16 PM
At least this is more relevant than the 2014 NBA draft posts.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:16 PM
What’s the elevation in Brasil? Does it change at all by locae?
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:19 PM
Brazil should build visiting team hotels in the middle of the Favelas.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:19 PM
Confederations cup 2009! US 2 – Spain 0!
/Take whatever victories you can.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:21 PM
Hugely. Most of the venues are closer to the water but several of them are in the 1000m elevation range.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:21 PM
Will count that if you let me count getting pantsed by Italy and rogered by Brazil twice.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:22 PM
As long as you don’t bring up Mexico, we’re cool.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:24 PM
“Hey why isn’t the USMNT in the Confederations Cup this time? Tahiti is!”
“Simple. We’re miles behind Mexico in player quality and got laughed off the field in the Gold Cup final.”
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:25 PM
Not sure I buy Italy, but the other 4 are spot on. I’d like to say France should be in Italy’s spot, but they’re so god damn dysfunctional that I assume they’ll crash and burn again.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:27 PM
LOL and sob at the same time
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:27 PM
Feel like you would lose a foot to diabetes before you get drunk off a caipirinha.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:28 PM
Mexico is so far away from the upper elite citing them is silly. Sure, they’ll own the fuck out of the U.S. (sad face) but Germany, Brazil, Spain, Argentina et. al will smoke them.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:30 PM
I’m thinking about putting down some early money on Argentina. I just have a feeling that close to home, they will put together a run. Messi is too fucking talented to not matter in at least ONE world cup.
/might also have had this feeling for WC2010
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:32 PM
I feel the same way, actually. But with the Gauchos, one injury to a starting defender and they’re probably screwed. That’s what scares me about them. ARG will be the team I pull for the most after the U.S. gets embarrassed in the group stage.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:33 PM
First you have to avoid getting machete’d in a favela.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:34 PM
It seemed Italy played a more aggressive style in Euro 2012 than in the last WC’s. Would this be correct? Any chance they’d regress and go to their more traditional appraoch for the WC?
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:34 PM
International soccer just isn’t very good these days. How do Brazil, France, and Italy have such a drop-off from previous years? Why can’t Argentina produce a decent defender after having Zanetti, Samuel, and Ayala for so many years? There seems to be an overall decline of talent in the game, which maybe also explains why the club game is concentrated among a tiny minority.
Apart from that, my non-Euro-South American sleeper for 2014 is Japan.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:36 PM
Longshot: Any Crew STH in here? I’m trying to get a hookup for 2 tix for the 9/11 USA-JAM game…. As USMNT told me, the Crew STH will be getting first crack at those shortly…
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:36 PM
Duffy you forgot Ireland?
/No he didn’t
//It was suggested to merge that Northern Ireland and Irish team into one. The rational suggestion was met with angry ‘rabble, rabble, rabble’
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:37 PM
The club seasons are too fucking long if you ask me. By the time players suit up for the WC or Euro-style events, they’re gassed. Also, there isn’t a decline in talent in the game. That would mean that soccer is the only sport in the world where the athletes have gotten worse than they were in previous eras. That’s nonsensical.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:39 PM
after the U.S. gets embarrassed in the group stage.
The U.S. will do at least one amazing thing that gets us all to rally behind them, and then disappoint when we’re all finally paying attention. I’ve gotten used to it, actually. Still fun.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:40 PM
Who wins between current spanish team and Brazil and France of late 90′s to early 00′s? I think I’d take France and Brazil.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:41 PM
Yep. Only you forgot the back-breaking goal that dooms us will be conceded within 5 minutes of our high moment.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:42 PM
Spain on both accounts if Villa is healthy.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:42 PM
I always take the team with the game changing striker. Plus, I love you Xabi, but give me a fucking break if anyone thinks Zidane is not getting through Spain’s midfield.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:43 PM
I’d take a sleeper from Africa such as Ghana (their U21 was pretty awesome!)
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:44 PM
Hate comparing teams that are >10 years apart, but I think I agree.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:44 PM
Zidane would be the best player on the pitch, but I think Spain might have Nos. 2-10 on their side to be honest.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:45 PM
Also Deschamps and Dunga are better than any CDM that this Spanish team has ever played against. People are REALLY underestimating how good both of those teams were.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:45 PM
Come on, we could get an easy group again!
Any Chance the Dutch rebound and maybe field a squad with a few less egos on it, kinda an addition by subtraction?
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:46 PM
At this point, I just want the U.S. to get there. Anything else will be cherries on top.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:47 PM
Dechamps, Blanc, Petit, Thuram, Viera…all good players, but would you take them or Pique, Ramos, Xavi, Iniesta, Cesc?
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:47 PM
They’d have to remove all Dutch players from the team to avoid the ego issues. The Dutch love them the Dutch.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:47 PM
Does Greenland have a soccer team? That’s who I’d pull for, you know,if I watched soccer.
/whatevskies
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:47 PM
France because of…
This
I went to France as part of an exchange program after the ’98 WC, I got to France the day after they won. It was the biggest three days of partying I’ve ever seen between the WC win and Bastille Day.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:48 PM
Yep, as much as it kills me to admit it, those French squads were just so damn fun to watch.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:48 PM
With the Beloved Leader out of the way, look out for North Korea at WC 2014!
From Wiki:
North Korea’s coach, Kim Jong-Hun, informed the media that he received “regular tactical advice during matches” from Kim Jong-il
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:48 PM
Oh HELL NO.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:49 PM
Spain would have a harder time with France of 1998 than with Brazil of 1998.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:49 PM
I would take all of France’s defense over Spain’s. Not sure why anyone wouldn’t, frankly.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:50 PM
I just couldn’t help it.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:50 PM
Oy. Short memories.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:50 PM
That’s because they’re all 30.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:50 PM
I feel like Thuram-Desailly-Lizarazu-LeBeouf is a much stronger back line than Alba-Pique-Ramos-Arbeloa. Agree to disagree.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:51 PM
I believe Marshal Petain made this same statement at some point.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:51 PM
It seems nonsensical, but then compare the quality of these teams on paper from those of even 6-10 years ago. There are very few world class strikers in the game today, and you could even argue the same for defenders as well. There are right now four major talents right now that can win you an international tournament, and two of them (Messi & Ronaldo) are stranded on subpar squads. Xavi and Iniesta are obviously great, Ozil might get there, but right now the game doesn’t seem really comparable to the Ronaldo, Ronaldinho, Zidane era.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:52 PM
Taking Zidane out as he’s clearly the best player, I think Pique and Ramos are a better 1-2 punch than Desailly and Thuram. I think Busquets is at least as good as Deschamps as the holding middie, but I could see the argument there. I’d take Xavi and Iniesta over Karembeu and Petit all day, erry’day. I’d also take a healthy Villa over Guivarc’h.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:52 PM
I laughed.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:52 PM
And don’t forget that if it weren’t for a last minute medical decision Romario is on that ’98 Brazil squad, too.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:53 PM
Nigeria won a Olympic gold medal in soccer. Yep, they only had 3 overage players on the team. That’s it. ONLY 3. WHAT!!????!!!!!??
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:53 PM
Zidane would be the best player on the pitch, but I think Spain might have Nos. 2-10 on their side to be honest.
Oh HELL NO.
Yeah, I’d agree with mole on this one. That was a solid, solid, all around lineup.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:53 PM
Jesus I didn’t even include Blanc cuz I forgot he was suspended for the final.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:53 PM
WTF is he doing on that list? Dude was great for 3-4 years and then got fat and lazy. Ronaldo/Zidane he certainly is not.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:54 PM
/ OT
Ha, fuck you, Tom Benson.
/ End OT
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:54 PM
I do think that Spain would have to have Villa healthy to take France down. They would need a stone cold striker for sure.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:55 PM
Vieira, Desailly, Deschamps, Thuram, ZIDANE, Thierry Henry. Man, what a great team.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:55 PM
Also, need I even mention the gap between Casillas and Barthez?
/(full disclosure) I hated Barthez
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:56 PM
Henry was a sub at the time. He scored three goals that tournament, but he was hardly the same Henry as he was after the WC for Arsenal.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:57 PM
And Henry was only 20 on the ’98 team. That team was just flat out filthy.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:58 PM
Does Greenland have a soccer team? That’s who I’d pull for, you know,if I watched soccer.
Denmark.
/Kareem Abdul-Jabbar on Jeopardy’d
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:59 PM
All time favorite Jeopardy moment.
July 3rd, 2012 at 1:59 PM
Dude was great for much longer than 3-4 years and definitely belongs in any shortlist of best footballers ever.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:00 PM
Could say the same for Ronaldo, but Ronaldinho is still one of the all-time greats, and there hasn’t been anyone like him for style in recent years.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:01 PM
If you were a moron, sure.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:03 PM
If I’m making a combo starting 11 of France ’98 and Spain ’12, it looks something like this:
Casillas
Ramos-Thuram-Blanc- Lizarazu
Deschamps-Xavi
Iniesta-Zidane-Silva?
Not sure up top, go false 9 with Fabregas or put in a young Trezeguet or young Henry?
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:03 PM
Well you should, he blew ’06…well besides Zidane losing his temper
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:04 PM
Would much rather take the career of 3-4 years of transcendent soccer (Ronaldinho) over long, solid but unspectacular career of someone like Michael Carrick.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:04 PM
I thought Makelele was on the 98 squad…and I was wrong.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:05 PM
Ronaldo was untouchable from ’96 to ’99, when he suffered two major knee injuries. After that, was he really better than Ronaldinho’s prime from 2002-2007ish?
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:06 PM
I thought so too. If he was in, it’s a wrap. France 98 all the way.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:06 PM
While I would definitely agree that those French and Brazil teams were far more entertaining and watchable I think Spain really has it down to a science. Brazil and France would have to be incredibly clinical with their chances, because Spain would just starve them of the ball.
The collective ethos is always going to be stronger than the individual brilliance in soccer.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:06 PM
Sorry, but he is not an all-timer. Not in my book. He won the FIFA POY award in back-to-back seasons 04 and 05, I believe, and then he fell off big time due to injuries and other issues. He had a great 4-5 year run, but that does not make you and all-time player.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:07 PM
This right here. Ronaldo was great from 96-2006.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:07 PM
That’s not even remotely what you said the first time but yes I would put up the majority of Ronaldo’s career with Real up against Horseface Killah.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:08 PM
Good god, Ronaldinho doesn’t touch Ronaldo. His foot skills and control are legendary but as an all-around player he doesn’t come anywhere near the all-time best discussion.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:09 PM
/ Way OT
This Andy Griffith retrospective had me LOL’ing.
SUms up what made that show so great.
/ End way OT
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:10 PM
What he said.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:10 PM
Also Ronaldo didn’t get fat from being lazy and obsessed with the night life like Ronaldinho did. He had legitimate medical reasons for the health issues that slowed him down.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:11 PM
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=C7mXGMcpA0g
Everyone stop fighting and watch this Zidane highlight.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:12 PM
The first CL Final I can vividly remember watching was Real against Leverkusen when he hit the left-footed side volley from the corner of the 18. Still the most absurd goal I’ve ever seen live.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:12 PM
If you could combine the 98 and 2002 France squads I’d dare say that’s a drubbing at the hands of the French. A lot of those guys are much more physically imposing than Spain, too.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:12 PM
Ronaldinho could have achieved nothing in terms of titles/personal accomplishments and he would still be held up as an all-time great just because of his genius with the ball.
It’s why they call it “The Beautiful Game”
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:14 PM
Zidane (who’s my favorite all time player…though Messi is trying his hardest to change that) was the best player of his generation. His penalty in the WC Final is the ballsiest penalty I think I’ll ever see. Thanks for the vid, Kaiser. I now have goosebumps while watching it.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:15 PM
Yeah, you’re right; my immediate impression of Ronaldo’s Real career is more in the mid-2000s, that year they lost to Arsenal. Totally overlooked the early years.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:15 PM
It would depend on how the game was called. If it’s called like it is today I don’t think France’s physicality amounts for much of an advantage.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:17 PM
How refreshing for a German team to make it to the CL Final and not embarrass themselves. I forgot what that was like.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:17 PM
No No No No No No No No No No No No No
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:18 PM
FYP
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:19 PM
This article frames the France vs. Spain article pretty well: http://www.zonalmarking.net/2012/04/24/how-the-2000s-changed-tactics-1-the-fall-and-rise-of-the-passing-midfielder/
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:19 PM
Could have had more too without the injury/coach not playing him in the final.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:19 PM
They had size and speed, which the Barcelona contingent sometimes struggle against. That’s why I thought they were a little fortunate to avoid Brazil in 2010.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:20 PM
Two-time world players of the year belong on that list. If Messi breaks a leg and isn’t the same when he comes back, people will still say he is one of the best. Don’t let Ronaldinho’s fat years obscure his hayday.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:20 PM
…..
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:20 PM
He was going to come on but they pulled him back because of the sending off.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:21 PM
Favorite Zidane story: Real Madrid coach yells at him for not running hard enough in training. Zidane turns to him and says in front of everyone, “who the fuck are you to tell me what to do”.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:21 PM
You don’t just start doing things like this after you get fat:
http://news.bbc.co.uk/2/hi/7374317.stm
/she’s a man, baby’d
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:22 PM
The 6:22-6:39 mark of the video Kaiser linked is absurd, by the way.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:26 PM
Messi has achieved so much more than Ronaldinho ever did at this stage, though. That’s not really debatable. Just look at the club record of Messi (goals, assists, individual awards).
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:28 PM
/cut to David Seaman hanging himself in an attic
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:29 PM
I will also take Belgium as a dark horse in 2014. They won’t win it, but they have a ton of talent on their team.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:30 PM
That’s gotta be a top-5 all time GK blunder, right?
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:30 PM
Great argument, bud.
/TBL’d
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:30 PM
Will say it again. What modern footballer does in international football should have NOTHING to do with how we view him as a player.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:31 PM
Hazard will be dead from a syphilis infection by then, if there is a God.
Belgium have been one of those teams that has had “a ton of talent” waiting to break through the past five years and they haven’t been able to translate it to national team relevance. Witsel and Defour should have formed a brilliant partnership by now. Alas.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:33 PM
This is Nic Anelka’s act for the last fourteen years.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:33 PM
Is he the football’s version of Sasquatch? It seems like I’ve been hearing about this kid for 5 years now. Just get to a major team, already!
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:34 PM
I agree Mole, but you would think they would qualify for this tournament. Their defense should be pretty good as well with Kompany, vertonghen, Vermalen. Granted Vertognhen plays in the midfield for Belgium a lot, it is a pretty solid group. Their midfield and forwards are pretty good as well.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:34 PM
That’s what your comment deserved. Ronaldinho an all timer? GTFO.
I get that it shouldn’t matter a ton, but nothing? Not a little bit? I don’t agree with that.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:34 PM
Hazard joined Chelsea this year
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:36 PM
Anyone else pumped to see Jordi Alba shred some shitty La Liga defenders this year for Barca?
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:37 PM
Nope. Nothing. You have to judge a player based on the team that he practices with every day. Plays game with every week. Not some random team with random players that he joins once every other month.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:37 PM
I think you are confusing Pepsi endorsements with player quality.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:38 PM
So you would argue that Ronaldinho is not one of the 20 greatest footballers ever?
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:38 PM
There’s not enough continuity between their players at the club level. They might be the new Czech Republic as far as being a plausible contender from outside the traditional powers.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:38 PM
Thank you very much Bayern Munich, Jesus CHRIST you had the chance to kill off that club.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:39 PM
Absolutely not. Top twenty attacking midfield players? Yes.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:39 PM
Sorry, but I’m judging the fuck out of the U.S. National Basketball team if they lose to Gold this year in the Olympics, and that’s very similar to international soccer. I agree that Messi can still be the GOAT should he never win the World Cup, but a win in the World Cup will all but assure he goes down in that regard. Just the way it is I guess. I do agree that club soccer is more important, and CL titles and league titles mean more in the grand scheme of a players’ career, but I don’t think you can discount WC/Euro success or failure as completely irrelevant.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:40 PM
Maybe a bad example due to Messi’s goal scoring. My point was simply that, just because he got fat at the end of his career, doesn’t mean he wasn’t one of the best players ever earlier in his career. I wish he had more longevity…but I can’t say that his short (3 year) run as the best player in the world means he shouldn’t be on the list of best players ever. How many people have won 2 world players of the year award? he had TRIPLE the votes of runner-up Lampard the second time around.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:40 PM
I would say that. I think he’s in the top 40. Not sure if that means 21 or 39 though.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:41 PM
Yeah, I actually meant for that to read: Top twenty attackers.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:41 PM
I would not argue, I would state categorically as fact that he is not.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:41 PM
He was amazing for 4-5 years. That’s not up for debate, but I don’t think that 4-5 years of amazing = all timer.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:42 PM
Miserable fat Belgian bastards.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:42 PM
I’m of the school of thought that national team achievements and performances should only be used to enhance someone’s legacy, not subtract from.
*Except for trolling Chelsea and United players, of course*
Pele never played in a top league. That’s a much bigger knock to his legacy than Messi’s failures to lead Argentina to glory.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:44 PM
I guess I’m just surprised at your derisive tone. By my definition, being top 40 makes you an all-time great, so what are we in disagreement about?
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:45 PM
NASL not a top league? Blasphemy, the New York Cosmos would destroy the Spain/France’98 hybrid.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:46 PM
Messi, Maradona, Zidane, Pele, Ronaldo, C. Ronaldo, Pele, Beckenbauer, Platini, Van Basten, Garrincha, Puskas, Muller, Maldini, Xavi, Zico, Rummenigge, Eusebio, Best, Schmeichel, Casillas, Buffon
Those are just some of the players I’d take over Ronaldinho all time.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:47 PM
Without a doubt. I think I might take Cryuff over Pele…who I forgot in 133. Maradona and Messi are also above Pele in my book, too.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:47 PM
If Messi wins 2 more Champions League (Greatest football competition by far. Period. End of story. Discussion closed) titles with Barca, but doesn’t make even a semi-final appearance at the WC with Argentina, you might not do it, but a lot of mouth breathers will claim he isn’t the greatest ever. Give me a break. Those people clearly don’t understand football. That is why international football is irrelevant, IMO. I just don’t see how in this day and age, where all the greatest players in the world take part in a long competition like the Champions League (therefore eliminating chances of unworthy teams winning the cup), we can still hold the fact that a player hasn’t won an international tournament, a novelty act, over their head to deny them of proper place in football history.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:48 PM
You saying Pele doesn’t understand football? Because that’s his exact position.
/is saying Pele doesn’t understand football
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:49 PM
That he’s in the top 20 all time. I also need to break down if I truly would have him in my top 50 overall. That would take some time…which I doubt I’ll spare, to be honest. Again, if you are asking for a 3-4 year run, then yes, I’d take Ronaldinho, but for a career I just don’t think he’s all time material.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:50 PM
What a bitter, old man he has become. Shame that he needs to take outrageous positions in order to pathetically hold on to last string of relevancy.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:51 PM
It’s a shame to see, actually. The fact that he’s now saying Neymar is already better than Messi leads me to believe he might be senile. Neymar is great, but as good as Messi? Fuck no.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:53 PM
I’d take Drogba over Ronaldihno any day.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:53 PM
Pele has always been a self centered asshole. He has mob ties, is a commerce whore, and represents everything that is wrong with the sport. Without Pele there aren’t players holding out for more wages.
/fuck that little Icelandic bitch going to Spurs
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:53 PM
I’m with Soused. Ronaldinho was extremely good for about four or five years. Then he fell of the face of the Earth. No all-timer has such an about-face unless it’s due to injury and Ronaldinho didn’t get worse because of injury. He got worse because he partied too much and didn’t keep working on his craft.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:53 PM
Part of the reason I hold Ronaldinho in such high regard is the same reason many push him down the list of top players. He was a lazy, partying sack of shit and that affected his overall numbers and achievements.
But in terms of talent and ability, I consider Ronaldinho in that top tier.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:53 PM
The international game should still be hugely important – they’re still the biggest events in the sport, and it’s the one arena where a team has to work with what it’s got. Argentina can’t simply go out and buy a defender like all the monied clubs, they need their great players to perform in order to beat other teams, who also may be structurally unsound in other ways, and therefore also require their stars to show up. Isn’t that just as important for assessing greatness as playing in a team created by oil money?
Messi doesn’t have to win the World Cup to be an all-time great, but a tournament without his effect would be a real mark against him being at the very top, above Pele and Maradona.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:54 PM
Hahaha, we’ll take Sigurdsson thank you very much.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:55 PM
In terms of talent and ability Mario Balotelli is an all timer. Consistently using said talent and ability and honing your craft is the hard part.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:55 PM
What is this bullshit? Ronaldinho’s career absolutely went in decline when he had his injury filled season. He wasn’t able to completely recover because of his work ethic, but injuries were ABSOLUTELY the turning point in his career.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:56 PM
I know…he already is one.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:56 PM
Ronaldinho was the best player on a CL-winning team and the 2nd or 3rd best player on a World Cup winning team.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:57 PM
Disagree. A torn muscle sidelined him for one year. It was during that year off that he became lazy and partied like a rockstar. One torn muscle should not derail an all-time career.
July 3rd, 2012 at 2:59 PM
Yes, but he has two Intercontinental Cups with Santos, beating Benfica and Milan.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:00 PM
For the umpteenth time, 4 years does not an all timer make unless you put up down right stupid numbers.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:00 PM
Well according to grumpy old senile Pele, Messi isnt great because he hasnt won a world cup. Screw pele
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:01 PM
I don’t disagree with that, just saying that the injuries he had toward the end of his Barca career were what pushed him off that cliff.
“I need a new challenge” = Serie A is down at the moment so I can pull this shit off in Milan with nobody noticing.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:01 PM
To defend Horsey, he was one of the best players in the world before he moved to Barca. He moved there for a reason.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:03 PM
I was in Paris for his last season at PSG and caught a game. The atmosphere was electric when he came on (he just got back the day before from a Brazil qualifier or friendly). Dude came on in the 65th minute and tagged the post within 2 minutes of being on the field. I had a blast at that game.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:05 PM
People forget how insanely good he was with PSG, and that he didn’t move to Barca until a full year after his 2002 WC performance.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:06 PM
Exactly. I think there’s a lot to be said for a guy that creates that kind of buzz, because you know he might do something with the ball that no one has ever seen before. I get that you put the most stock in results, but I think they can sometimes blur the bigger picture.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:07 PM
I got to see him play for Milan when they played Chelsea in Baltimore in 2009. Seeing him live is one of the sporting highlights of my life. Can’t say that for anyone else in that game.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:07 PM
Right, my point really is that we can overrate the importance of club football for greatness now. Messi is an all-time great for his career at Barca, but they’re also a club that attract the best players in the world in every position.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:08 PM
I get excited when my chinese food is delivered with a quickness, too. Doesn’t mean it’s some of the best chinese all time.
What’s funny is that I’m a Ronaldinho fan. I just don’t think he’s all time stuff due to his rapid decline. Zidane is an all timer, and Ronaldinho is nowhere near Zidane’s level.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:10 PM
Messi’s best argument for how good he is is to watch Spain try and score without him, as they play essentially identical to Barca. Outside of two games (one against terrible Ireland and one against a 10-man Italian side for 30 minutes) Spain has issues scoring. With Messi they win every game this Euro by 3+ goals.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:10 PM
Mole, this is what I was getting at. He didn’t have a career-ending or -altering injury.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:12 PM
That’s fair. He let it be altering.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:13 PM
Zidane might be the best of all time, but respecfully, you’re paying too much attention to the results if you think there’s that much between them.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:14 PM
Either way we can all agree that his 3 year run from 03-05 was pretty badass.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:14 PM
No…no I’m not.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:16 PM
Did you just hear yourself?
“Zidane might be the best of all time…you’re paying too much attention to the results if you think there’s that much between [he and Ronaldinho].”
Surely you’re not suggesting that the gap between the possible GOAT and Ronaldinho is slim, right?
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:18 PM
But Barcelona’s success is also hugely reliant on the contributions of Alves, Sanchez, and Mascherano – any of the three would have drastic effect on Spain’s style and tactics. But Spain’s success is as good an argument for the greatness of Xavi and Iniesta as anything they’ve done at Barcelona; with no Messi, or more importantly, Villa and Puyol, they still manage to win.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:18 PM
What’s the criteria?
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:20 PM
Ability + results + longevity + consistency
Agree with that. I’ve been saying for a couple of years now that Xavi is the second best player in the world, though I think Iniesta may have taken that from him. Though I have to admit that Ronaldo is a god damn badass.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:22 PM
This viewpoint would be valid if we still lived in a time when the milkman delivered our dairy, people listened to the game in their transistor radio, and we had separate fountains to drink out of. It’s a romantics viewpoint, but totally wrong way to look at sports in 21st century.
Like Moleman said, the fact that Pele didn’t play against top players regularly in club competition should be held against him more than Messi not playing well in international tournaments.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:24 PM
And that’s why international tournaments are not just a novelty act. An essential part of greatness is overcoming limitations, which aren’t nearly as apparent at the elite club level.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:26 PM
Ability: Ronaldinho
Results: Zidane
Longevity: Zidane
Consistency: Zidane (very debatable)
I am(clearly) largely biased in favor of ability.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:26 PM
Let me stop you right there.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:27 PM
I almost spit my drink out laughing at this. Thanks for handling it so I didn’t have to.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:28 PM
Okay…be honest…you are in fact Ronaldinho, aren;t you? Or you’re his brother, mother, or best friend. No one in their right mind could say the above bolded pieces with a straight face.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:32 PM
I would not argue about most of those. I would argue with Garrincha. It is also difficult for me to equate Ronaldinho’s value to that of the defenders/keepers you listed. You might be right on all of them. You might be wrong on all of them. I have no clue. But, Garrincha – his career sounds like a much less impressive version of Ronaldinho’s….including getting fat and lazy in what should have been the last couple years of his prime.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:33 PM
Damn…that was a late reply. Work got in the way.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:35 PM
/admits I have never seen Garrincha play
//hides from flying things after taking position in 178
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:35 PM
And yet half a billion people watched some part of the World Cup final. This is arguably the crown jewel in all of sports – it doesn’t make any sense that a great player on a traditional power can be called the all-time greatest, and yet possibly have no real impact on the biggest event in his respective sport.
And I brought up that Pele has two Intercontinental trophies with Santos, which were wins over two legs against Benfica and Milan. He also scored nine goals over those games, which I think puts to rest any idea that he’d struggle in Europe.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:36 PM
Billy Liddell and Dixie Dean should have been on that list, too, by the way.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:37 PM
This is the crux of our disagreement. For 3 of those 4 years, he was the best player on the planet. That does it for me.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:37 PM
I’m not suggesting he’d struggle in Europe. I’m saying he lacked the ambition to do it.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:38 PM
Agreed 100%. Who is doing more (less?) for their legacy between Pele constantly turrets-ing about Messi and Jordan running not one, but two franchises into the ground?
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:39 PM
Lil’ bitch was scared.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:39 PM
I like this guy.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:42 PM
Wasn’t he prevented from leaving by the Brazilian government? “National Treasure” and all that?
Judging Pele for not playing in Europe is the retro “Messi on wet Wednesday at Stoke”. He proved himself against the top European clubs, and stayed in Brazil at a time when it was clearly the best producer of talent in the world, unlike say England.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:44 PM
And we don’t hear anything against George Best for playing against inferior British talent.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:45 PM
To be fair he had the same strike rate in continental competitions that he did in the league more or less.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:46 PM
And was also drunk.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:47 PM
“Ronaldihno is the best player EVAR!”
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:47 PM
You are giving 4 games as example of what he might do if he played regularly against best European players? That’s not to say Pele wouldn’t be a great player if he played regularly in Europe. I’m not saying that he wasn’t great by any stretch of the imagination. All I’m saying is that he has some nerve calling Messi’s resume weak when he himself didn’t play regularly against best of the best.
World Cup has the history behind it. People watch it because they’ve always watched it. They watched it because it was one time during every 4 years, you had the best players all playing in the same tournament. We have a better version of that now. It’s called the Champions League. Most popular doesn’t always equal the best. If he wins something with Argentina, it’ll be the cherry on top of the sundae. If he doesn’t, it shouldn’t be held up against him. There are too many variables outside the players control that can mess up his chance to win the World Cup. Those don’t exist in Champions League.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:48 PM
No one gives a fuck about Jordan not being terrible as a GM save for idiots on the internet. Dude is the GOAT and that’s on lock down.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:49 PM
That right there.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:49 PM
If he was running a team that actually had fans I assure you this would be different.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:51 PM
not being terrible = being terrible.
/talking on phone and typing is no bueno for me
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:52 PM
His career as a GM has absolutely nothing to do with his career as a player. Therefore, his legacy remains perfectly solid even if he runs every damn team into the ground. GOAT on the court is all that matters.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:53 PM
Somewhat. His experience with European referees in the 1966 WC and the fact that no European clubs outside of Italy could really afford him played a bigger role, he didn’t want to go and Santos had no reason to sell him.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:55 PM
NASL not a top league? Blasphemy, the New York Cosmos would destroy the Spain/France’98 hybrid.
the spain/france hybrid would collapse on the meadowlands turf, no doubt.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:55 PM
Wow, 200 comments on a soccer non-game thread and we have less than 5 “soccer is teh fags HEHEHEHEHE” comments. This might be some sort of site record.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:55 PM
Its one thing to be the GOAT and ride off into the sunset (or just keep up with the endorsements). Its totally another to then be incredibly inept at your follow up career. That is specifically true for Jordan who always came across as a savy businessman even when he was still in the league. Always had the best endorsement deals, etc. Lots of this could be attributed to the fact that he was a walking hero and already considered the best to ever play the game. But there was always something about him that made him seem like the smartest and most savy person in the room. That no longer seems like the case to me.
I am not saying this has effect on either of their days on the court/field. But, at least for me, it will go into how I remember them 10, 20 and 30 years from now.
July 3rd, 2012 at 3:57 PM
No clue how old TrinityPills is, but anyone my age or older (28) would never for one second think Jordan being an abortion as a GM hinders his legacy at all. Those of us who were lucky to watch him in his prime know that’s silly. Again, I couldn’t care less how good or bad a player is as a GM.
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:04 PM
I’m 31 and there wasn’t a bigger Jordan fan in the world than me when I was growing up (yuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuuge frontrunner at those ages). But when I am telling my grandkids about the best to ever play the game…I won’t be able to do so without at least then thinking about how poorly he ran the Wiz and Charlotte.
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:15 PM
Definitely. I don’t pay any attention to Pele’s current day pronouncements, but his record as a player against European competition stands. It’s still more than what Messi has accomplished for the Argies against Nigeria, Greece, South Korea, and Mexico.
I can’t think of any country besides Spain where club soccer totally supercedes the national team in the popular imagination. For all the reasons I’ve said above, the international game presents unique challenges that require the truly outstanding players to step up. Wayne Rooney and Steven Gerrard both have Champions League titles, but we don’t consider them as greats after seeing them struggle for England. Same concept goes for almost everyone at Chelsea.
He doesn’t have to win the World Cup, but a defining performance for Argentina is a prerequisite for greatness. Even the last Copa America was a disaster.
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:16 PM
And yes the club game right now is bigger than the national team in England, but England winning a World Cup would be a much bigger sensation than Manchester United winning the Champions League.
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:18 PM
Either way, most of London would be celebrating.
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:19 PM
HEY HEY HEY HEY HEY, watch it.
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:25 PM
The Champions League is too popular – this is an even better test of greatness:
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ajvFvOD7nGY
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:26 PM
Actually though Gerrard is a good person to look at.
When his career is over, and his legacy is analyzed, NOBODY will be talking about the fact that he failed to lead England to glory (granted he was the only England player to show up this summer on a consistent basis), people will be talking about his failure to win the Premier League.
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:32 PM
Assuming of course they don’t win it in the next three years.
/dies from laughter
//sees Jay Spearing in hell
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:35 PM
Well England is such a shambles that no one player will ever be held responsible – but I’d hold England much more against him. Gerrard only had a two or three year window where his team was reasonably competitive, and it required a world class Torres, Alonso, and Mascherano to bridge the financial disparity with other clubs. With England he only needed to beat one decent team, and yet they labored even against the likes of Trinidad & Tobago.
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:39 PM
“beat one decent team..” as in advancing past the quarterfinals of a major international tournament.
July 3rd, 2012 at 4:46 PM
Oh don’t get me wrong not saying it wasn’t a failure on that level. I love England’s failures like a child.