The New Yorker Suggests Doing Away With Soccer Penalty Kicks, Doesn’t Bother With the Practical Details
Nicolas Thompson wrote about ties for the New Yorker’s Sporting Scene blog, connecting the weekend’s two notable draws, England vs. Italy and the U.S. Women’s 100m Olympic Trials, and contrasting the sports’ responses. He asserts that soccer should follow track and field’s lead. His argument, perhaps predictably, was a dumpster fire.
What makes you good at the sport is what makes you good at overtime. Regular-season hockey is a mishmash of competition and theatre; playoff hockey, with its first-goal-wins system, is exhilarating. Soccer’s solution is pathetic and unworthy of the sport. Players pass, run, head, dodge, sprint off balance, and dive for a hundred and twenty minutes. If the game is still tied, they try to kick the ball in from twelve yards away. The best you can say is that the skill required to win is not entirely irrelevant. It’s like settling a basketball game with a game of H.O.R.S.E., and it’s only a touch better than resolving the Tour de France by seeing who can change a flat tire faster.
Moreover, how is kicking a soccer ball only a partially relevant skill? That’s the entire sport. What differentiates penalty taking is not a “skill” but mental fortitude under withering pressure. It is little different from free throws.
Thompson then brings up the 100 meters tie between Jeneba Tarmoh and Allyson Felix. He believes this should “show” soccer something about the “purest way of solving a tie.”
Now Felix and Tarmoh have been given a choice: they can flip a coin or they can race again. Most likely, they’ll wait until they’ve both raced in the two hundred metres. And then they’ll surely choose to run. And that will provide the purest way of solving a tie that any sport has devised.
It’s pure. That’s wonderful. Now, what, precisely, is soccer supposed to learn from that?
Importing that exact solution, replaying the match, is not logistically feasible. Italy and England cannot delay the entire tournament to replay their quarterfinal match with a sensible refractory period. With other matches dependent upon the outcome, they cannot let the tournament proceed before replaying the match. This “pure solution” could cause interminable delays and tens if not hundreds of millions in damages. It’s completely impractical.
Perhaps, Thompson wants soccer merely to absorb the spirit of track and field’s resolution to the crisis to determine a “purer” way to settle a draw. Fine, but that notion is vapid unless it comes packaged with a corresponding solution better than the one in place.
Both NHL and NBA playoff overtimes can be exhilarating. Those sports can do that. They play shorter periods, have constant stoppages and substitute players in and out well. If need be they have enough bench players to bring on in reserve.
Soccer players play two 45 minutes half plus stoppage times, followed by two additional 15 minute overtime periods. Teams have exhausted substitutes. Those periods cannot proceed interminably until someone scores, without endangering players’ health. Even if the bench is cleared, that’s still half the original team out on the field. One could devise a five-a-side game, but that would be gimmicky and even less “pure.”
No one would claim the penalty shootout is ideal. Most would recognize it as a reasonable compromise that provides, at the very least, compelling human drama.
[Photo via Getty]

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193 Responses to “The New Yorker Suggests Doing Away With Soccer Penalty Kicks, Doesn’t Bother With the Practical Details”
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June 25th, 2012 at 3:00 PM
Shootouts are infinitely more tense and exciting than NBA overtimes.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:00 PM
Sounds like some college football playoff suggestions I’ve seen.
/ doesn’t bother to read post
June 25th, 2012 at 3:03 PM
Bummer that Bobby Lou won’t waive his NTC for Chicago or Toronto.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:03 PM
NO I WON’T HIGH FIVE YOU DER KAISER.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:04 PM
This “pure solution”
NO I WON’T HIGH FIVE YOU DER KAISER.
Coffee on my monitor. Holy wow!
June 25th, 2012 at 3:06 PM
I heard people suggest a pre-game shootout that would determine a winner in the advent of a tie. I like it the way it is now.
Sick of non-fans coming in and trying to fix a sport they don’t really understand. Worst ever was Wilbon on PTI suggesting making the field smaller to increase goals.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:06 PM
Fucking THANKYOU. Terrible, terrible article.
What pissed me off is the tone that soccer doesn’t know what its doing. Replays exist in cup tournaments at the low levels and used to for cup finals in most competitions, they got rid of them because FIFA decided to ALLOW the possibility of penalty shootouts. It was the decisions of the leagues and UEFA to put them into place.
The group game that nearly got rained out would have caused a logistical nightmare, let alone replaying a knockout stage game. You’d have to push everything back and considering every fanbase left is a visiting fanbase, that’s insanely stupid to do.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:06 PM
Comparing soccer shootouts to the women’s 100M finish is weak at best. What are the chances that two women would tie even with the help of high-res photos and video of the finish?
Soccer games end in ties quite often. And while shootouts may not be the best way to determine a winner, it’s probably the most feasible option and certainly more exciting.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:07 PM
That’s a really weird idea.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:07 PM
That would do the exact opposite.
Wilbon knows nothing about sports.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:08 PM
Here’s a novel idea: keep playing. Keep playing 15 minute periods, with a golden goal. In regards to substitutes and exhausted players, you can make simple rule changes to address all of those things. To say you can’t is to admit that your sport is inflexible and about as fair as a tie in sprinting.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:08 PM
That’s awful.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:09 PM
that is seriously one of the five stupidest ideas ive ever heard in life.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:09 PM
The writer does realize that penalties routinely happen during the game, right? So they are a relevant skill even during regulation. American writers are having to really stretch to criticize the game now that it’s starting to do well in terms of ratings and interest.
Best way to handle the penalty shootouts would be to have the shootout take place before the 2 extra time periods. That way a team would know that they have to win in the extra time rather than go to penalties at the end. England should play that way now because they always lose in penalties.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:10 PM
I’m not here enough to pick up on name changes, etc. but what has happened to the regulars of late?
MS621?
Clayton Cargill?
Dirt?
Clay?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:11 PM
Even the 120 minutes is pushing it…
Saying that is like saying basketball teams should have 20 players on the bench.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:12 PM
I should say the best way to handle it if you have a problem with the way it’s handled now. I don’t.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:12 PM
It just encourages one team to play for one and would distort the result.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:12 PM
Duffy and other soccer fans…in general…please explain how the game would be changed by having open substitutions. I know fitness is paramount in the sport, but what effects would you see in play (both positive and negative)?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:12 PM
There have been pushes to allow an extra sub or two when games go to extra time but it is routinely shouted down.
Implementing your idea would take every bit of managerial strategy out of the game.
I do miss Golden Goal, though, that’s for damn certain.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:13 PM
howabout this…OT’s keep going but you play with one less player on the field per OT.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:13 PM
And suddenly Jimmer’s set for life
June 25th, 2012 at 3:13 PM
1. In Europe
2. Banned
3. See 2
4. See 2
June 25th, 2012 at 3:14 PM
That would be even worse. You have to cover more ground and players will tire quicker.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:15 PM
Yes, keep playing until players start dropping like flies one by one out of exhaustion. Then someone can just walk past a fallen player to put the ball in the net. And maybe presidents, chancellors, prime ministers can do the thumbs up or down sign to either kill or spare the life of each player that collapses during the game.
Just imagine, Ozil drops to his knee from exhaustion in minute 227. Crowd simultaneously turn toward Angela Merkel. She puts out her right hand and slowly turns the thumb down. Then a member of her security staff runs out on to the field and shoot him right then and there.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:15 PM
exactly the point…less possibility of a stalemate. and think of the tactical decisions!
June 25th, 2012 at 3:17 PM
Also infinitely more stupid.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:17 PM
I really don’t see how you can’t add one or two more players to the bench, add an additional sub per extra period (every 15 minutes), and add the golden goal. It really is that easy. I’m not saying that the players wouldn’t be dog tired or even risk injury to some extent, but it’s not like these players lay on the ground for hours after each match and then sleep in hyperbaric chambers for a week straight before their next match.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:18 PM
I don’t want to touch you either, you dago wop.
/bites into a pizza slice
June 25th, 2012 at 3:18 PM
Kaiser – that got outta hand really quickly. Show me a better idea then?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:19 PM
So wait, we feel so sorry for the poor, tired soccer players? The things aren’t going to last forever. The more tired they get, the easier it’s going to be to score a goal.
I’m not saying I agree with the blogger, but a shootout is the equivalent of lining basketball players up at the end of OT and having 10 of them shoot free throws to see who makes more and wins the game….as Duffy alluded to.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:19 PM
England seemed to be playing for a shootout, maybe there were just being dominated. Baffling game, strange late Italian subs but I can’t imagine England felt confident going into a shootout against Buffon.
Hodgson seems to be getting praise for making the exact same tactical errors as Fabio Capello.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:19 PM
Here’s my idea. Each team gets to pull a Billy Cole once a game.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:19 PM
i lolled.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:19 PM
Umm…actually….
June 25th, 2012 at 3:19 PM
Its not as effective as overtimes are in the sense that the better team can lose because of a goalie/player mistake rather than actually playing the game. However, in terms of dramatics, its still more exciting IMO.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:20 PM
Just imagine, Ozil drops to his knee from exhaustion in minute 227. Crowd simultaneously turn toward Angela Merkel. She puts out her right hand and slowly turns the thumb down. Then a member of her security staff runs out on to the field and shoot him right then and there.
The Armenians see nothing wrong with this.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:21 PM
How many miles does the average player run in a game? Five? Six?
Vast majority of that not done at 100%?
I’m not convinced on this exhaustion argument.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:21 PM
Just to clarify, I’d prefer golden goals over the current overtime system, which I believe is 2 overtime halves followed by shootout if necessary…but shootouts are still fun to watch.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:22 PM
So you are implying that every professional soccer player acts like that and needs that sort of recuperation every week? Get outta here with that.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:22 PM
You don’t get it. Go back to jacking it to the Citizen’s United decision.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:22 PM
Why not 5-6 soccer balls on the field. That’d increase scoring.
/Wilbon’d
June 25th, 2012 at 3:23 PM
Movie Micmacs they play soccer with a one buried land mine on the field.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:23 PM
Completely in favor of the first two. No reason another sub or two can’t be added. Players these days are conditioned to play 90 minutes, no more. It would be like asking a sprinter to run a 600m. Some could do it, most couldn’t. Take last night: both team’s players either jogged around the two ET, or didn’t bother try until the last few minutes of the second ET.
However, Golden Goal is like away goals: actually creates stifling, defensive play (read: boring) because of the increased ramifications for conceding.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:23 PM
Isn’t that stat for midfielders?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:23 PM
ManCity owners salivate at the idea of unlimited subs and a 25-man gameday roster.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:24 PM
How the hell is playing with the intent that the players get more tired and make a mistake leading to the end of the game (and then impacting the quality of the next game) a BETTER way of deciding things?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:25 PM
How many miles does the average player run in a game? Five? Six?
90 minutes in midfield is about 7.5 miles. It’s also a lot harder to do that cardiovascularly to do that stopping and then sprinting at full tilt than it is jogging.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:25 PM
After 120 minutes players are allowed to use their hands to carry/throw the ball.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:25 PM
Then you don’t understand the physical exertion a high-level soccer game has on a player. It’s not like basketball or football where scoring is fairly common, so games don’t stay tied for long.
I don’t understand how allowing players to keep playing until they get tired is any better than deciding games via penalty kicks.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:25 PM
After 120 minutes, take one player from each team off the field every five minutes until each team is down to six players and a goalie. Allow unlimited substitutions to alleviate health concerns. Golden goal wins. Soccer is still being played instead of a skills competition, and managers really have to make key personel decisions in the later minutes.
Where’s the hole in that scenario?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:25 PM
Well shit, sometimes you just can’t get everything you want. you can’t have lower minutes per match without golden goal. simple math. So what’s more important: the style of play, or how long it takes to get the style of play over with?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:26 PM
Yes…play already starts to dip dramatically in second period of extra time.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:26 PM
because it’s still not as arbitrary as the coin flip a goalie’s dive is.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:26 PM
The Soccer players should ride horses.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:27 PM
It’d be more exciting, but in a sport that goes into overtime as much as soccer does, it’s totally unsatisfying to see it come to penalty kicks to me.
I might be biased though, I was really pissed at the dude from Uruguay in 2010 who cheated Ghana out of the game winner at the end and then it just went to PKs.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:28 PM
BULLSHIT soccer is still being played. That’s five a side. Which is a gimmick.
There’s a reason the NHL doesn’t do the 4 v 4 for overtimes in the playoffs.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:28 PM
(1) taking off players tires out players further and accomplishes nothing
(2) there are only 18 players in a squad. Whether you sub in an extra three players or not you still have half the team on the field about to pass out from exhaustion.
(3) it doesn’t add any competitive value and places players’ health at serious risk.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:28 PM
wouldn’t the goalie be at an advantage the longer the match goes though? He’s not running around as much.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:29 PM
And this is the biggest hole in the argument against the shootout. Penalties are not even close to being a coin flip. There is a ton of strategy and pressure involved.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:29 PM
So everybody who is against soccer shootouts because it is different than the rest of the game, is also against intentional fouls in basketball when down late, right (read: turning it into a free throw contest)?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:29 PM
After 120 minutes, each player has to pair up, hold the other guys dong, and play as a pair.
/this is as logical as a penalty kick. serial.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:31 PM
another idea – goalie gets one hand tied behind their back after 120 minutes. golden goal is implemented. case closed
June 25th, 2012 at 3:32 PM
You see, PK’s are really not that common. Casual american soccer fans think it’s common because they mainly pay attention to the sport during these international tournament.
There’s no penalty shoo-out during league games. In Champions league, due to away goals rule and home and away fixtures leading to the final game, they happen very rarely. Like others have said, no one is arguing that PK’s are the best method to determine the winner. However, it’s the best logical and realistic method to determine the winner.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:34 PM
June 25th, 2012 at 3:35 PM
Let’s have it both ways. Let the players ride horses AND have one hidden land mine.
Also, 40-foot goals with 2 goalies.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:35 PM
I absolutely am. I hate what always happens in 8 point basketball games with 80 seconds left.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:35 PM
Babar – Solid comparison. Which frames making penalty kicks as important as making free throws. Always comes back to the fundamentals of the game.
Can the offisdes rule be made flexible for OT?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:36 PM
After 120 minutes, opposing teams Roshambo for it. First Italy kicks England in the nuts, then it’s England’s turn. Last one standing wins
June 25th, 2012 at 3:36 PM
I know this, and yet that doesn’t make it any better.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:37 PM
How does it do that other than you saying it does?
A penalty kick is a natural part of a soccer game.
6 v 6 is not. Never mind that under FIFA bylaws a game must be forfeited if there are fewer than seven players for either team on the pitch.
At 6 v 6 it’s much more of a “skills competition” than a shootout is because then it’s nothing but long balls and long shots.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:37 PM
You know what’s less common? Penalty shots in the Super Bowl, NHL Finals, NBA Finals, or World Series.
KEEP.PLAYING.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:37 PM
Yeah, and deciding major tournaments by skills competitions is as pure as the driven snow, right?
Kasier, that’s great that it doesn’t happen in leagues. But major tournaments need tiebreakers that the leagues don’t. Deciding a Euro or WC final on PKs is a joke. I’m 29. Two of the five World Cup’s I’ve been old enough to appreciate have been decided by a skills competition. That’s absurd.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:38 PM
After 120 minutes an additional ball is put in play. Each additional 5 minutes thereafter another ball is added.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:38 PM
I enjoyed the PKs in the England/Italy game. Watching Pirlo totally bitch slap the english squad with his chip and their subsequent shitting of the bed was quite the spectacle. It was much more enjoyable than exhausted players trying to prevent a score which we saw in the 2nd half of extra time.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:38 PM
THE SHOOTOUT EXISTS BECAUSE OF THE SPORTS FLEXIBILITY.
In 1970 FIFA gave leagues and governing bodies the option of putting shootouts into place. They did this because they saw it as the most viable option for settling ties. It was slowly introduced and ultimately everyone came around to it.
They know more about soccer than you do.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:41 PM
THISTHISTHISTHISTHIS
Take your high horse and your snarky opinion of the beautiful game and beat it, nerds. Nothing’s as fun as watching England CLEARLY wait around for the shootout. Talk about excitement! Those last 30 minutes I was on the edge of my seat, waiting to see if they could possess the ball for more than 5 seconds! Oh, the thrill!!
June 25th, 2012 at 3:41 PM
So are free throws. Lets have that decide the next NCAA final.
Since we’re talking about changing the way games are decided, I didn’t think I had to follow current FIFA bylaws. There’s no logical case to be made that six players passing, dribbling, shooting, defending, crossing, and attacking contains less actual soccer than a shooter and a keeper squaring off on a spot kick. You may not want it done that way, but saying it’s more of a skills competition than a shootout is objectively false.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:41 PM
Buncha Skip Baylesses in here.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:41 PM
Isn’t the entire game and pretty much all of sports decided by a skills competition? The Heat won because they were more skilled at basketball than the Thunder (unless you read this site then it was because the refs made sure the Thunder lost). Penalties regularly decide who wins games in regulation just as free throws decide NBA games.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:42 PM
FIFA is always right.
/boils to death in Qatar
June 25th, 2012 at 3:42 PM
They know more about soccer than you do.
Blasphemy! That’s impossible. These people here are brilliant…brilliant! Just ask them!
/you don’t need to ask, they’ll just tell you
June 25th, 2012 at 3:46 PM
I don’t know which sport you prefer, but I guarantee the last 30 minutes of it contain over 5 truck commercials. I do not consider watching inane advertising exciting. Secondly, Italy was very close to scoring the entire time. I was literally on the edge of my seat. Pirlo’s goal was devastating too, never seen a man bitch slap an entire country with his foot.
/Team PK’s
//If teams don’t like it they can play more aggressive
///Also Fuck Italy
June 25th, 2012 at 3:46 PM
No one is being snarky. I just have trouble understanding how letting them keep playing til one team wins simply because the other team is too tired to chase them is a better way to decide the game than penalty shootout.
And to call penalty shootout a skills competition shows a severe lack of understanding of soccer. It’s not even close to being a skills competition. As Moleman keeps pointing out, there’s a ton of strategy and athleticism in those shootouts.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:48 PM
You guys act like penalties are such novelty in soccer. They happen REGULARLY during the course of a game. They’ve been part of soccer since the game was created.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:48 PM
Really don’t see the point in arguing soccer with someone who thinks the USMNT could beat England.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:50 PM
I get that, I mean ET is usually pretty damn dire.
So how is the solution to England being horrible in the game to make England play longer?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:51 PM
A basketball game has never been decided by free throws, good point.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:51 PM
No offsides in OT
June 25th, 2012 at 3:51 PM
Italy was close to scoring, sure. But they didn’t. And since they didn’t, we got treated to a game of horse. A skilled, strategic, athletic game of horse, but a game of horse nonetheless.
Isn’t that, in essence, EXACTLY what they do for the other 90 (or 120) minutes?
June 25th, 2012 at 3:52 PM
Don’t be bringing logic in here, we talking about sports and ‘Merica. They know best and you can geeeeet out.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:52 PM
No.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:52 PM
Again, that’s not the discussion. There is more strategy and athleticism in a 6 v 6 game than there is in a shootout. Its about alternatives.
Put it this way — if a 6v6 competition was the way we had decided ties for the last 40 years, soccer purists would be up in arms about changing to PKs. We tolerate PKs because they’ve been around forever, not because there is no superior alternative. Admitting that is a good first step.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:54 PM
/Opens link
//Looks for dong pics
///Closes link
June 25th, 2012 at 3:55 PM
The second the FT whistle blew, England conceeded all desire to score a goal and decided right then and there to play for PK. So what you had was one team desperately trying to score a goal (we will call that “trying”), and the other team desperately trying to wait for the shootout (we will call that “not trying”). What you have now told me is that its okay for one team to basically not play to win for 30 minutes while the other team does the opposite. Sure, you can debate the “strategy” and “gamesmanship” of that decision, and as it stands right now thats probably in Englands best interest, but boy oh boy was it no fun to watch.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:56 PM
Resorting to a strawman is never a good look
June 25th, 2012 at 3:57 PM
////coop’d
June 25th, 2012 at 3:57 PM
Wait, you’re right. Thats not what happens. Because one team decides to mail it in for 30 minutes. And then we are all expected to take that approach seriously.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:58 PM
Just think for a second what you are saying here. Tie game in basketball. Change it to a 2 on 2 tournament. Tie game in hockey, change it to a 3 on 3 tournament. Tie game in football, Take out the linemens and running back and turn it into a 6 on 6 tournament. How is that the same sport at that point. Atleast penalties happen regularly during the course of a game. It’s always been part of soccer.
June 25th, 2012 at 3:59 PM
You just described Baltimore Raven football but I don’t see people getting up in arms about that
June 25th, 2012 at 4:00 PM
That is NOT what happened though.
Take the FA Cup for example (where replays still exist in the early rounds). Replays existed for the final up through the nineties. They switched because they found the PK solution to be superior.
I just can’t take the 6 v 6 argument seriously, and for good reason.
The only realistic alternative (playing longer than 120 is not realistic, nobody would agree to that because of health concerns) would be adding a few subs for the ET. However, that will inherently punish teams who have injuries in the first 90 and wouldn’t be accepted because of that.
I don’t love the PK solution, and for finals I think a replay would be awesome but it simply doesn’t work anymore, but the solutions you guys are putting forward are not realistic. They’re not unrealistic because the sport is static (the number of changes to the substitution and scoring formats in major tournaments in the last thirty years makes this contention beyond laughable) but because they just would not work with 1) the spirit of the game 2) health issues 3) financial issues.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:00 PM
It’s not wrong, though. You put 10 mathematicians, stat heads, and athletes in a room and tell them to devise the best way to settle a tie in soccer, and there’s no chance they’re leaving that room with “shootout, bro.”
And if it’s so strong, why has no other sport adopted that method? Where is the NFL FG kicking contest to decide the Super Bowl? The home run derby to choose a World Series Champ? Fuck March Madness, lets play HORSE! Hockey? I’m not really sure how hockey works something with octopi?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:01 PM
We don’t need to do that because all of those sports KEEP PLAYING UNTIL THERE IS A WINNER.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:02 PM
Baseball should adopt a home run derby as a way to settle regular season games. No reason for 18-inning games for some meaningless June game.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:03 PM
LOL, bravo. Well done.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:03 PM
England didn’t stop trying. England were dominated. Italy was all over them in ET not because they were playing for penalties, but because England have nobody to mark Pirlo in midfield and Ashley Cole took a swandive off the form cliff in the last month.
England may have been hoping for penalties because it was their best shot at winning, but they were getting run off the field. It’s not like they were parking the bus, they just sucked.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:03 PM
Kaiser, to answer your question: I’d prefer your method to a FT shooting contest, slapshot contest, or FG kicking contest, respectively. Which is the equivalent to what soccer does with PKs.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:03 PM
ok.
basketball has enough scoring that OT’s continuing on forever are extremely unlikely.
again, scoring in hockey’s more frequent…especially if there’s a penalty situation.
football’s a more structured sport and all it takes to win in OT is a FG. you see ties in football once every few years if that.
how would soccer NOT be the same sport with less players on the field? moreso…how is a shootout the same sport as the first part?
im not against shootouts in any way…i just don’t think your comparisons have much merit when you look at the way the games are scored.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:03 PM
If you are saying extra-time is pointless, that’s a more valid argument than using something other than penalty kicks to decide the winner. I agree that overwhelmingly majority of the time, extra-time in soccer is absolutely unbearable to watch. I’d be more keen to consider the idea of simply taking that extra-time away and go directly to penalty kicks rather than your half baked solution of 6 on 6 game that resembles soccer.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:04 PM
Because only two playoff games in the history of the sport have needed more than one OT…if scoring was as rare there as it was in soccer the rules would be different
June 25th, 2012 at 4:04 PM
College football.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:05 PM
England was dominated. You’re right. They could not compete with Italy in the actual sport of soccer, so they stalled until a completely different game with better odds was enacted after 120 minutes.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:06 PM
I agree with what you are saying. Hell, I said the same exact thing earlier. Those sports can keep playing until there’s a winner, simply because scoring and substitution (therefore fresher legs) are so common. That just doesn’t exist in soccer.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:06 PM
Hockey actually has a shootout in the regular season, after a ten minute 4 v 4 overtime. In the playoffs they keep playing.
Hockey is actually a great comparison though.
Regular season: 10 minutes of 4 v 4, then a shootout.
Playoffs: 5 v 5 and you keep playing.
They don’t do 4 v 4 in the playoffs because they acknowledge it’s a gimmick meant to end regular season games. They don’t do a shootout in the playoffs because it’s also a poor way of deciding games.
So what’s the difference?
Line changes.
If you want to introduce open subs to soccer, great. You’ve just taken the competitiveness and strategy of professional soccer and turned it into friendlies and high school soccer where open subs exist. Horrid.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:06 PM
It’s not about the lack of scoring. It’s about settling ties. 4-4 games end in PKs just like 0-0 ones do.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:08 PM
What if soccer went to a penalty system? What if they made a player leave the pitch for 1 minute if they received a yellow card? Perhaps a team could score a goal in the minute of 11 on 10 action and the amount of ties would be reduced?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:08 PM
Good god…are you a gimmick?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:08 PM
FIFA could add reserve rosters precisely for these occasions and allow more substitutions. Its not like that’s an intractable problem. And if you take guys off the field every five minutes, that’s less fatigue and more chances for scoring.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:09 PM
I have not once petitioned for lowering the number of players on the field. That argument is silly on a number of fronts.
Mole – you are making my point for me. Instead of trying to win, England spent the better part of 40 minutes trying not to lose. Had PK’s not been an option for them, surely they would’ve tried to attack and score, correct? And as close as Italy was getting to scoring, surely they would’ve scored before someone collapsed on the field and died, right?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:09 PM
Hack a Shaq, Run the ball to control the clock, taking a knee.
stalled until a completely different game
Playing mofucking Backgammon out there.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:09 PM
right…so why not encourage scoring and force teams to make strategic decisions or win the day by sheer talent? i think it’d really amp up the intensity of an already tense match and then we’d get to see reporters rake coaches over the coals for stupid decisions…win-win-win-win.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:10 PM
This post is completely overflowing with hilariously bad ideas.
The game is fine the way it is. The only thing that needs to be changed is sensor technology on the line of goal so there’s no doubt if the ball goes in or not.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:10 PM
Sorry. Too many people with too many viewpoints. Got my target mixed up.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:10 PM
sorry, i would’ve read the rest of your comment but i flopped and you had to leave the pitch.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:11 PM
WHOA WHOA WHOA this is blatantly false.
The conversion rate in hockey for a penalty shot is around 30%. In soccer it’s around 75%.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:11 PM
boom
June 25th, 2012 at 4:11 PM
Again, you’re forgetting that PKs are horrid. You’re spending all sorts of time poking nonexistent holes in alternatives without looking at the late-term abortion that is the current PK system. You sound like Baseball Fan railing against instant replay because “OMGZ WHAT IF RUNNER ON SECOND ADVANCES ON ERROR THAT TURNS OUT TO BE OVERTURNED DERPPPPP.”
6v6 with more subs isn’t perfect. I’ll fully admit that. But it’s far superior to PKs because it actually incorporates much more soccer into the solution.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:12 PM
You can receive a yellow for diving too though.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:14 PM
i mean, you’re probably right (im not one to ascribe veracity in this case) but it’s still a kinda fun discussion to have.
and rule changes can help the game too…im sure the NFL was a lot less fun to watch when mel blount and his ilk could maul WR’s all over the field. or a lower mound to inflate bob gibson’s ERA to like 2. shit like that.
and the converse is doing nothing in regards to regulation can hurt a game too…like how equipment has taken over golf or instant replay is giving incorrect results to a game when everyone saw a call called correct was wrong.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:14 PM
And what I’m saying is you don’t understand the sport of soccer if you think 6 v 6 on a regulation field is better at incorporating soccer skills than a shootout.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:14 PM
yea, but im italian so if they gave me a yellow for diving, they’d have to give the whole team one too.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:15 PM
what about 10 vs 10?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:15 PM
Have you ever watched Rubgy Sevens? Not really Rugby at all.
Also I don’t think England wanted PKs, they just couldn’t stop Italy and were terrified of conceding a goal. That’s the game.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:15 PM
or…whatever would make numerical sense.
/i should probably excuse myself from this debate
June 25th, 2012 at 4:15 PM
The only changes I would make–
a) reinstate golden goal, i’d need to see data that showed me more matches went to penalties with it than without it to change my mind;
b) goal line technology and review on potential goals;
c) I would change offside rule to no offsides if ball is played from inside the box;
d) ban England from all competitions
June 25th, 2012 at 4:16 PM
the ol’ chamberlain strategy never works.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:16 PM
By the way, England have a 14% winning rate in their history of penalty shootouts.
Yeah the England players were fucked pumped to goto a shootout. It’s not like every major tournament they’d played in for the last twenty years the running joke has been that England are going to crash out on PKs so there’s no point in having the shootout.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:17 PM
Fucking pumped.
Though fucked pumped sounds better.
/coop’d?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:18 PM
Whoa. No way. Players could stand behind the keeper. Cherry picking is not a solution.
Though I agree with point D.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:18 PM
lick my love pump...it’s a mach piece.
/no coop
June 25th, 2012 at 4:19 PM
/marks D on ballot
//drops ballot into box
June 25th, 2012 at 4:21 PM
As long as the keep losing I say keep them around. Whores need tabloid fodder to sell.
/Won’t someone please think of the Polkraine whores?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:22 PM
the whoressars.
/nods at euro-tripping ms621
June 25th, 2012 at 4:22 PM
Two reasons I don’t like the taking players off argument.
1) In actuality more likely to cause teams to be cautious and drop into a lone striker formation.
2) You’re causing players to cover more ground which will make them tire quicker and make more mistakes. Tiring quicker is a problem in both that it will screw up later rounds and if it’s in a final do you really want it decided by someone getting a cramp and someone being able to go past them? To me that’s a LOT cheaper than a shootout.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:23 PM
6v6: Contains passing, defending, attacking, strategy, shooting, dribbling, set pieces, headers, goalkeeping, substitutions, formations
Shootout: shooting, goalkeeping, strategy
So, given this list, explain again how a PK contains more soccer than actual soccer?
I’m not trying to be a smartass, but you’re ignoring huge neon facts in front of your face that show you’re wrong. Again, you may like PKs better, but there’s no argument that it contains more soccer.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:26 PM
So wait, one-on-one PKs are fine, but a player beating a defender to earn a one-on-one with the keeper is cheap? LOL come on man.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:28 PM
because that happens all the time.
Simply stated, rule changes and conditioning regime adjustments would do so much for the sport of soccer compared to PK’s for knockout-round matches. There really is no argument. To say you cant adjust the rules would be to admit you are inflexible. To say you cant better condition your athletes would be to say that you have reached the threshold of the human body. I think both are disingenuous at best.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:29 PM
If a guy’s calf rolls up like a windowshade because he’s one of two defenders left and has been playing for three hours and gets waltzed by, yeah that’s pretty damn cheap.
6 v 6 is not soccer, on a regulation field. I mean shit maybe if you turned it into a half court game it would work, but that’s too different. I just don’t see why you can’t grasp that taking off 45% of the players is more of a novelty act than something that is inherently part of the game. And it’s not part of the game just because we’re used to it, but because it’s a necessary part of the game.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:30 PM
Again it would be like Rugby Sevens and exacerbate the problems of exhaustion. Teams with great speed would play uber conservative until it was 6v6 time and just long balls and go chasing.
PK’s ARE a part of the game, there was one in Spain v France. The fact is the game has to end. Teams can make tactical decisions to be more aggressive to avoid PK’s like England should have done.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:31 PM
Nowhere does this counter-argument address the remaining 1v1 of goalie vs opponent.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:31 PM
Again, there have been massive changes to the rules and formats of these tournaments almost every decade. Stop saying the sport is inflexible, both of you. That’s just wrong. Just because a proposed change sucks doesn’t mean the system is static (mind you there are things that FIFA and UEFA need to be more open about changing, but this ain’t one of them).
Honestly this is not worth replying to. These guys are insanely highly tuned athletes.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:31 PM
To say you cant better condition your athletes would be to say that you have reached the threshold of the human body.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:33 PM
The 1 v 1 spot kick is one of the most fundamental pieces of soccer.
A novelty act of taking guys off until you hope someone fucks up is not.
I know you’re not arguing for this though. I actually like the idea of adding a few more subs but there are legitimate reasons they won’t do that (and subs aren’t an untouchable issue, there have been changes to how many bench spots are allowed, again, not static).
June 25th, 2012 at 4:33 PM
Do we really want Kenya and Jamaica to be the top teams?
Ecuador at home would be unbeatable.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:35 PM
For the record I don’t love PKs.
I would LOVE for replays to be an option for finals (granted that would likely mean Liverpool have a hot few less trophies right now) but it’s not a viable option. They didn’t switch to PKs because they loved the system, rather because it was the best alternative that they saw.
And again, every single governing body in the sport had the option to keep replays or switch to PKs and eventually every single one of them made the decision on their own.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:35 PM
so is putting, but golf tournaments aren’t decided by a putt-off.
you’ve convinced me…keep it as is.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:36 PM
wait…whatever.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:36 PM
Mole – sure, they make changes, i’ll give you that. so then make changes to allow for more subs, deeper benches, and a golden goal. simple.
QS – the reason why its not okay has nothing to do with the human body and everything to do with expectations. Marathoners, triathletes, and plenty of other endurance performers can perform their craft for hours on end. I think it would be reasonable to expect that out of the sport of professional soccer.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:38 PM
Well of course they will decide to go ahead and log a result to the match in opposition to playing it all over again.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:38 PM
More subs will likely happen at some point.
Deeper benches have happened.
Golden Goal used to be the rule and they took it away (for legit reasons, personally I liked it though).
These guys are not endurance athletes. A marathoner would most likely be horrible at soccer at a level beyond a rec league because they haven’t trained their whole life for it.
Plus they’re not running a marathon every three days. And if they are, they’re the ones I laugh at when their heart explodes at the finish line.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:38 PM
Fuck off, red fiber vs white fiber athletes. Soccer is both.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:40 PM
huh?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:40 PM
Presumably your suggestion for a tie in these sports would be to just keep running?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:41 PM
fast-twitch vs. slow-twitch muscle movement.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:42 PM
Queefer (who would shorten that to QS given the chance, come on oheelyeah), the only sport that uses the taking players off for overtime is hockey.
And they refuse to use it for the playoffs because they see it as a cheap solution for more meaningful games.
I think this is a solid argument against that approach.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:43 PM
Keep playing overtimes until someone scores. Just allow for additional substitutions, 2 per 15 minute OT period per team.
How hard is this.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:43 PM
RIP Jimmy the Greek.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:43 PM
Discovered the mole in the Krout locker room.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:44 PM
Mole – i know its a different craft, but we are talking conditioning that is ramped up over years of effort, not weeks. Give them as many years as they decide it would take. Im not asking for it to happen overnight.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:44 PM
thank god it’s time to leave because i just pissed my pants.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:45 PM
When I was playing club soccer, we played in a tournament at Gettysburg that used cool rules for extra time:
7 v 7
No offsides
No goalie
1st goal wins
June 25th, 2012 at 4:47 PM
Whoever it is that keeps leaking the line-up to the press, needs to DIAF. I have a strong suspicion as to who it is. Once I complete my investigation from my laptop, I’ll let you all know.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:47 PM
fast pitch vs slow pitch softball
June 25th, 2012 at 4:48 PM
Oh and allow teams to dress 21 athletes. That would allow for a complete turn over of the roster.
Team A and team B’s primary players play to a draw after 90 minutes. So clearly the top 14 players are of equal stature. So if you allow them to after each 15 minute period to substitute an additional 2 until basically the entire roster is turned over you have begun to test the overall strength of the roster depth. You will evnetually see a goal.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:55 PM
Either Ballack or Mad Lehman is involved, book it.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:56 PM
I don’t like this approach at all. These tournaments should not be first and foremost about talent in depth.
June 25th, 2012 at 4:58 PM
not sure if serious….?
June 25th, 2012 at 4:59 PM
Shootouts!
June 25th, 2012 at 5:01 PM
June 25th, 2012 at 5:03 PM
I’m serious.
I don’t mean that in a sense that you’re not rewarded for having a deep squad, but this would basically eliminate the possibility of smaller countries making a run. Or in terms of club competitions, you’d NEVER see a Cardiff City make it to a cup final.
Russia would never have made the run they did in the last Euros if we put in a bunch of rules that made subs easier. You would lose a lot of the ability to have one outstanding player take hold of a lesser team and lift them up, and that’s one of the best parts of knockout tournaments.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:03 PM
Adding two subs, I’m cool with.
Allowing an entire roster swap? Fuck that noise.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:05 PM
I just hate the idea of playing forever until someone scores. That just changes so much about what soccer is at that level.
High school sports should not have the same rules as the pinnacle of a sport.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:05 PM
As a soccer referee, naturally I think continuous extra-time is a terrible idea.
Sure you can add a couple subs to each team but you can’t sub the referee, who runs further than any player and need to stay at a high state of fitness and concentration throughout the game.
But no one cares about us, until we screw up.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:07 PM
ticky that’s actually a great point, didn’t even think of that.
However … it might lead to Kevin Friend or Howard Webb collapsing … now I’m torn.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:08 PM
2 subs per 15 minute may create an entire roster swap, but it would occur slowly, creating the need for additonal tactics and talent. And the game would be played out proper. I doubt many games would get past 3 15 minute overtime periods this way.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:12 PM
Yeah, it would reward countries like Brazil who can put out three or four quality first XI and punish the teams whose players are able to play 90+ minutes. People here underplay the influence of fatigue as a strategy in this sport, and how mass substitutions would do away with all that.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:15 PM
A valid point. At the same time, the ratio of games that are settled in extra time to those settled in penalties is fairly even over the course of WC history. In the Euros it’s something like 9 games have been settled by PKs and 6 by a goal in ET but Euro 96 fucked up that ratio because almost every goddamn knockout game ended in a shootout.
It’s not like PKs happen every time.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:18 PM
And I’m perfectly fine with penalties; if two teams aren’t interested in scoring, or are content to play the most cautious, attritional strategy, then penalties stops them from wasting everyone’s time and energy. Teams can go ages without scoring, and the russian roulette of penalties is the best incentive for teams to take risks and win, unless you try and hang on like England. When one team wants to get to penalties and the other wants to avoid it, that creates compelling drama.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:24 PM
The argument of “Team A can just try to stifle and play for penalties” can easily be changed to “Team A can just try to stifle until the next substitution is allowed.”
Penalties aren’t perfect, but I still think they’re better than the everyone gets an orange slice solutions people are offering here.
This endurance discussion reminds me of the glitch in the PS2 FIFA games where FA Cup and EPL games would be played on the same day, that shit was infuriating.
June 25th, 2012 at 5:44 PM
How many substitutions can a team make at one time? The physical and mental fatigue of the other players will only increase, so the manager will still remain very conservative in his tactics unless wholesale substitutions are allowed.
Penalties are the best mediator imo between fairness and entertainment, and by now there are enough famous memories that it’s become an essential part of the game. What would soccer be like without John Terry slipping and crying in the rain?
Anyway, it’s not like hockey-style golden goal is a pure form, seeing as how the objective of the game is to score the most goals over ninety minutes, not who scores first. 30 min or more to settle it regardless of who scores first is the method most true to the sport. Hockey does it their way because it’s tremendously entertaining. I don’t know why people can’t accept that with soccer and penalties.
June 25th, 2012 at 6:11 PM
I don’t know why people can’t accept that with soccer and penalties.
Because after watching a game in which goals are a rarity, to suddenly see teams scoring 4 or 5 consecutively is jarring. I’m just throwing out a philosophical and/or atheistical problem I have with soccer in the back of my mind.
Maybe if there was greater uncertainty in the PK, we’d be more interested?
June 25th, 2012 at 6:48 PM
Any shot other that’s not hard and to a corner is capable of being saved, and even that one risks hitting it off the bar or missing the goal entirely. There are enough players who screw up and strike it tamely towards the middle, allowing for the easy save.
June 26th, 2012 at 6:17 PM
Why dont we compromise and just play offense against defense? 5 offensive players take the field starting at midfield and try and score a goal against 5 defensive players and the goalkeeper. If they fail to score before the defenders kick it past the midfield line, then the teams switch sides. If a team gets a shot on goal, which must be taken from inside the penalty box, then the other team has to at least match it to continue the switching, or score to win.