Dwyane Wade Scores 41 to Eliminate Pacers; Indiana Faces “Star” Dilemma
Remember when the Heat were routed by the Pacers in game three and panic ensued? Then LeBron had one of those memorable performances (40 points, 18 rebounds, nine assists), and the Heat followed it up with 61 percent shooting in a game five rout. After Indiana jumped out to a hot start in game six, Dwyane Wade took over, scoring 18 points in the second quarter and carrying Miami to the Eastern Conference Finals. Wade finished with 41 points and said afterward, “talk about trading me again, bitch.”*
Indiana, a proud franchise that only missed the playoffs once from 1990-2006, has perhaps its best team since the 1999-2000 version that won 56 games and lost in the Finals to the Lakers. That version had 12-year vets Reggie Miller and Mark Jackson, solid interior play from Rik Smits and Dale Davis, plus offense off the bench in Austin Croshere. Their best player was probably Jalen Rose, who was just entering his prime. Miller was still an elite player at 34, but he always seemed like a “No. 2″ player to me. Kind of like Danny Granger is right now (as strange as it sounds, Granger is as good an offensive player right now as Miller was at 28). The 1/2/other debate is a tricky one, and I don’t have a hard-and-fast definition, but essentially “No. 1″ players are franchise players who can carry you to the Finals and make everyone around them better. Keeping in mind everybody needs help, I’d say these are your true franchise players in the NBA right now:
LeBron. Kobe. Wade. Durant. Derrick Rose. Dwight Howard. Dirk.
And that’s it.
Carmelo Anthony is a great player, but he’s been beyond the 1st round of the playoffs once. Russell Westbrook is incredible, but how do we know what he looks like without Kevin Durant? Kevin Love probably makes this list in the very near future. Chris Paul and Deron Williams are tremendous point guards, and if they were on the Bulls, would they make this list instead of Rose? Perhaps.
I know what you’re thinking – what about Boston and San Antonio? No players on the list? Well, each of those teams has three of the current Top 40 players in the league, and that’s the other way to win. (Rajon Rondo looks incredible with Ray Allen, Paul Pierce & Kevin Garnett by his side … what would he look like in Sacramento?)
Interestingly enough, here are the “stars” from the last six teams that made the Finals:
2011 – Dirk over LeBron/Wade
2010 – Kobe over Celtics Trio
2009 – Kobe over Dwight Howard
2008 – Celtics Trio over Kobe
2007 – Spurs Trio over LeBron
2006 – Wade over Dirk
[Remember, as it says above, "everybody needs help."]
So what are the Indianas of the NBA to do? Instead of having an 8-9 deep rotation, maybe package some of that talent to get Granger two more “No. 2″ players in hopes of forming a Spurs/Celtics-like team? Or do they keep the core and give it another go next year? (David West is signed for one more year; Granger two.)
Here’s a wildly optimistic look at why the Pacers should do nothing:
- George Hill, their point guard, had 20 assists and 16 turnovers in the series. He’s better than that. This was only his first season with the Pacers. He’ll improve.
- Paul George, their 2nd year pro, played great defense against Wade in games 1-3, but then Wade dominated him. George shot 44 percent in the regular season; just 36 percent against the Heat. He just turned 22. He’ll improve.
- Frank Vogel should let Barbosa and Amundson walk, and pare down his rotation a bit. You can’t play 9-10 guys in the postseason. And he needs to get Hibbert and West 10+ shots a game next postseason. Indiana’s most dominant performance in the series (game three) was also Hibbert’s best game (19-18-5).
* He did not say that.

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122 Responses to “Dwyane Wade Scores 41 to Eliminate Pacers; Indiana Faces “Star” Dilemma”
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May 25th, 2012 at 12:41 PM
I fear that Paul George will never become what I think he can. Dude has T-Mac ability.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:43 PM
I’d love to see my “brother” Danny play on a team where he was the second banana to someone else. I think he’d make a great #2 guy on a championship caliber team.
/last name is Granger
//just humanized myself
///not using “humanize” as a euphemism for soemthing else
////just shut up already
May 25th, 2012 at 12:45 PM
Dude has T-Mac ability.
not sure what that means, as t-mac could have been a HOFer. so george has that potential, or the ability to under-perform?
/going off memory
May 25th, 2012 at 12:47 PM
I don’t know what this means. Either way, Paul is a franchise player.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:48 PM
You think Vogel (by most accounts a good NBA coach)was sitting in the huddle telling his players to jack up J’s and avoid the post? Easier said than done vs the Heat defense.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:48 PM
I would definitely list Paul as a franchise player.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:49 PM
I think you let Hill walk, which will probably be inevitable as someone will overpay for him, and sign a veteran PG that can competently feed post (Andre Miller, Jason Kidd, etc.).
I would then make an offer for Eric Gordon and shop Granger around looking for a competent post and wing for the bench.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:50 PM
Still like what the Spurs are doing right now. Among the final 5 I think they are playing the best ball and have the best coach as well. Anxious to see the old guard against the up and comers in the NBA Finals (aka the Western Conference Finals)
May 25th, 2012 at 12:50 PM
Tim Duncan may not be a star anymore, but he was on all 4 of the Spurs title teams.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:51 PM
Vogel looked very ordinary vs the Heat. Their offense is pretty terrible at getting their bigs close shots considering how much of a height advantage their front line had in this series. Never saw any screens for Hibbert or West, just 3 point line pick and rolls.
I would say they need to concentrate on getting more looks for their big men in the offseason and scrap the George Hill pick and roll offense.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:52 PM
Tim Duncan may not be a star anymore,
link?
May 25th, 2012 at 12:53 PM
I’m also curious to see how the Pacers handle this offseason. They have room to lock up Hibbert and pursue a FA (Gordon?), but that doesn’t account for them signing George Hill. And, if they sign Gordon and Hibbert, in 2 years when West leaves, they get pretty thin on the front line. They may be better off waiting until next summer, signing a FA big (JSmoove) to replace West.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:53 PM
Vogel looked very ordinary vs the Heat. Their offense is pretty terrible at getting their bigs close shots considering how much of a height advantage their front line had in this series. Never saw any screens for Hibbert or West, just 3 point line pick and rolls.
I would say they need to concentrate on getting more looks for their big men in the offseason and scrap the George Hill pick and roll offense.
some defense would be nice too. allowed more than 100 pts those last three games. sure, the heat have two of the top scorers in the league, but trying to win with offense only gets you so far
May 25th, 2012 at 12:53 PM
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/215/tim-duncan
May 25th, 2012 at 12:54 PM
Clearly they need point guard help: one who protects the ball and can make the entry pass. Hill is really a defensive 2 guard/back up scoring PG. Collison appears to have worn out his welcome with many in the organization due to his apparent “shoot-first” ability. They have a hard decision to make on both of their futures, but a legit PG is needed. they turned over the ball way too much, and that was not solely due to the Heat defense.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:57 PM
I’d argue the bench, supposedly a strength, hurt the Pacers more than a lack of a star, especially in the last couple games.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:57 PM
Probably the most prudent move is to assume that Paul George can slide over and take Granger’s place at the 3, and then to find a real 2-guard (Eric Gordon, Harden(?)) to add to the team. What the Pacers lacked was ability to hit threes and a playmaker.
Think if you let George Hill walk, you could get the PG in a Granger trade, and then try to sign a two-guard. That would help cut some costs so they can resign Hibbert.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:57 PM
Both, but to a worse degree. He could easily never even become an all-star.
May 25th, 2012 at 12:58 PM
I think they have two above average backup PG’s. I’d take either guy for my bench and either would be a good insurance policy but I think if you’re planning on taking advantage of one of the better post players in Hibbert, you’re going to need an upgrade.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:00 PM
Keeping Chris Paul off your “franchise” list is a joke.
On a more serious note, where does Jeremy Lin fall?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:00 PM
link?
http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/215/tim-duncan
you ddn’t have to link stats for me to know that his output has declined. i suppose we differ on the definition of ‘star’
take him off the spurs. where are they?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:00 PM
Yes. The Amundson/Hansborough frontcourt combo isn’t going to work. Collison is a good back up and Barbosa is ok but not really a good fit for the team.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:01 PM
Most important thing for the Pacers to do is not overpay to keep their own talent. While George Hill is a nice player, he’s very replaceable. Hibbert will probably command a lot of salary based on his position, but he can’t carry the team. They’ll have to cut costs somewhere, and I think the best move would be to trade Granger.
Would something like Granger to Clips for bad contract + Bledsoe work? Think that’d be an interesting trade, as Granger would be a significant upgrade over Butler.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:01 PM
Paul George did not show up at all in term of showing an aggressive brand of basketball, but that it nothing new. People have been wanting him to surplant Danny Granger as the go-to guy here in Indy, but he has not done that. However, I have confidence that George will continue to glide through the NBA and improve. He reminds me of what Robert Horry was at the beginning of his career: a Pippen-like talent with less desire, but capable of big shots. We’re just waiting for George to start hitting those shots consistently. If Bird stays, he will continue to push him to improve. However, that is a big if!
May 25th, 2012 at 1:02 PM
Who says no?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7blln4v
May 25th, 2012 at 1:03 PM
If Bird stays, he will continue to push him to improve. However, that is a big if!
what’s the rumor?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:05 PM
Keeping Chris Paul off your “franchise” list is a joke.
Jason McInBayless is just trying to start a conversation is all…
May 25th, 2012 at 1:05 PM
I don’t see any upside for the Pacers.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:07 PM
Who says no?
http://games.espn.go.com/nba/tradeMachine?tradeId=7blln4v
If i am the Clippers I would do that yesterday
May 25th, 2012 at 1:07 PM
I like it for both teams. Bledsoe is an immense talent, and they could slide George to SF.
Granger would help the Clippers with D and scoring.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:08 PM
Trading Granger probably is the right move. But, barring completely overpaying Hibbert, they should have enough money to sign Hibbert and a near-max guy. If (when) Dahntay Jones picks up his $2.9m option, they will have between 22-25 million to spend on 2 of Hibbert, Hill, FA (Gordon).
May 25th, 2012 at 1:08 PM
what’s the rumor?
ask webbercantcoach
May 25th, 2012 at 1:11 PM
I see plenty.
George Hill is very replaceable, and is going to command a salary increase that could hamstring the Pacers if they bring him back. I don’t think they can resign Hill and Hibbert and then be a legit threat to land a difference-maker at 2-guard.
This trade sheds them of some salary, gives them an intriguing guard prospect on the cheap, allows George to play the 3 (natural position I think).
Plenty of upside.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:12 PM
how about this trade
May 25th, 2012 at 1:14 PM
I’m not that high on Bledsoe. I don’t think he’s a starter in the league. Maybe a very good backup, but not a starter. And if you’re moving George to the 3, what do you do with Butler?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:14 PM
Are you talking about Parker or Duncan here? Duncan hasn’t been the leader of this team for three years now. He might be a ‘star’ in SA, but not an NBA ‘star’.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:14 PM
It depends on how much they value George and whether they think he can really make a leap in his progress. That trade would create an interesting team: 1.Bledsoe 2.Gordon 3.George 4.West 5.Hibbert…Collison, Butler, Hansbrough
May 25th, 2012 at 1:15 PM
In other words, I don’t think you’re getting much better and you’re not really solving any problems other than a small break in salary.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:18 PM
Are you talking about Parker or Duncan here? Duncan hasn’t been the leader of this team for three years now. He might be a ‘star’ in SA, but not an NBA ‘star’.
duncan. not talking about ‘leader’ but definition of ‘star’ is needed to continue. someone else chime in…is duncan a star anymore? was he ever a ‘star’ given that term implies excitement, sizzle
because at his peak, he never had excitement and sizzle
May 25th, 2012 at 1:19 PM
He might be a ‘star’ in SA, but not an NBA ‘star’.
seriously, we need to define ‘star’. because if it has anything to do with say, endorsements, i’d argue parker’s not a star either
May 25th, 2012 at 1:20 PM
I wouldn’t have needed to see your avatar to know you are a Lakers fan.
Not sure Gasol still holds that much trade value…
May 25th, 2012 at 1:22 PM
Let’s not get carried away
May 25th, 2012 at 1:22 PM
because at his peak, he never had excitement and sizzle
4 titles makes me all warm and fuzzy.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:26 PM
wow, that trade offer is awful. Pacers have 2 PGs, but want to add a 3rd? And Caron Butler? Really?
lol
May 25th, 2012 at 1:27 PM
The difference between Reggie and Granger… Reggie picks up his play from regular season to playoffs; he averaged 24 points 40% 3pt shooting in the playoffs (2000 championship run… 34 yrs old). Granger has not been able to pick up his play in the playoffs and he isnt clutch. Thats why Reggie was a legitimate #1 player who could take a team to the finals and granger isnt.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:31 PM
I take it you’re assuming they re-sign Hill?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:33 PM
Not sure about this one, so I am thorwing it to the Commentariat.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:34 PM
cmon fellas, i was all heated up about what ‘star’ means
May 25th, 2012 at 1:36 PM
Robert Horry was at the beginning of his career: a Pippen-like talent with less desire
Let’s not get carried away
relax jose, pippen-like could mean….tall, black, head-achey, unintelligible, ugly, cheap
best to ask him to clarify
May 25th, 2012 at 1:37 PM
Can the Nuggets guys even be traded yet?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:40 PM
so bird may leave?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:41 PM
anyone notice the beadle pic up top has been improved?
beadle reads the site
May 25th, 2012 at 1:42 PM
They would let George Hill go so as not to pay him, Broseph.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:42 PM
No idea, because its subjective, but Tim Duncan was the definition of Franchise Player throughout his career. Even now, he may let Parker drive, but he is still the guy everyone on the team looks to to set the tone.
Duncan was the “star” on this team. Parker played well, but thats because they had Damon Jones and Gibson on Islands trying to defend him while double/triple teaming Duncan.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:44 PM
It has nothing to do with endorsements. I liken it to when Duncan came to San Antonio. David Robinson was still there but he was no longer the star, it was Duncan’s team. Duncan hasnt necessarily taken a back-seat to Parker or Ginobili, but he’s not the clear-cut star anymore. He’s only led the team in scoring once in the last 5 years, and he’s not getting star minutes anymore. If you look at his MPG, he’s right between Zaza Pachulia and Nick Young.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:44 PM
just seems to me duncan is really good still and as valuable as parker on that team. take either away and they are not close to the title favorites
May 25th, 2012 at 1:45 PM
They would let George Hill go so as not to pay him, Broseph.
!!
May 25th, 2012 at 1:45 PM
According to the espn trade machine, yes, but that may be mistaken.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:45 PM
I suppose this was my point. In 2012 I can buy the Spurs being a “Trio”. In 2007 that was Duncan’s team.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:46 PM
Whatever the reason, thank god the pic has changed. The previous one was historically bad, even for her.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:46 PM
I guess the way I’m looking at it is this:
1: Bledsoe
2: Gordon (hopeful, obviously, but would be the plan)
3: George
4: West
5: Hibbert
Bench: Collision, Butler, etc.
They would be moving Granger to add a solid 2-guard, and I think George’s natural position is likely the 3.
But I’d love to hear some additional input from Young JMac! Maybe some more DWade trade possibilities!
May 25th, 2012 at 1:47 PM
Fun series. Good that Miami was tested, sometimes when the early rounds are too easy you get complacent and can let games slip away against better teams.
Spoelstra with good adjustments as the series progressed. Liked how he basically just let West/Hibbert get theirs since they had no one to guard them, and shut everyone else down. LeBron was much fresher at the end, didnt burn himself out guarding West.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:47 PM
and he’s not getting star minutes anymore. If you look at his MPG, he’s right between Zaza Pachulia and Nick Young.
i get that, but limiting his minutes is just smart, due to his age. also, if their team wasn’t as deep, they couldn’t
anyway, i needed a definition to know if he’s not that anymore. star can be top talent, or it can be PR hype, or both. tought to say he’s not a top talent, especially down low
May 25th, 2012 at 1:47 PM
They would let George Hill go so as not to pay him, Broseph.
using “Broseph” is one of the TBL things that has leaked into my everyday life
May 25th, 2012 at 1:50 PM
Hussler – where are they getting the money for Gordon?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:50 PM
Ok, now I’m obsessed with the new Beadle picture. She looks like Chucky from Child’s Play.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:54 PM
No Hussler, but already been answered:
May 25th, 2012 at 1:55 PM
He’s had a great postseason so far, if he can keep it up and the Spurs win it all it will force everyone to take a long look at his career and where he fits in among the all-time greats. In particular, is he higher on the list than Shaq and/or Kobe?
May 25th, 2012 at 1:57 PM
Scalia, you needed to end your post with a “Brochacho!”
May 25th, 2012 at 1:58 PM
He’s had a great postseason so far, if he can keep it up and the Spurs win it all it will force everyone to take a long look at his career and where he fits in among the all-time greats. In particular, is he higher on the list than Shaq and/or Kobe?
I think if he played in NY or LA for his entire career he is above both…I think his demeanor and market have hurt his all-time status
May 25th, 2012 at 1:59 PM
He’d have a better resume then both despite not having the benefit of playing with one of those other 2. So yes.
May 25th, 2012 at 1:59 PM
In particular, is he higher on the list than Shaq and/or Kobe?
on the non-boob and non-extramarital list, absolutely.
it’s still hard for me to think of shaq as an all-time great. i’m no nba maven, but what skills did he have besides being huge and mobile? moves, touch, anything fundamental?
May 25th, 2012 at 2:00 PM
it’s still hard for me to think of shaq as an all-time great. i’m no nba maven, but what skills did he have besides being huge and mobile? moves, touch, anything fundamental?
is “lazy as fuck” a skill?
May 25th, 2012 at 2:01 PM
decent comparison. Reggie Miller to me was always a lesser version of Mitch Richmond.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:02 PM
Let’s not get crazy with the sympathy for Duncan, though he’s one of the best. He’s played large parts of his career with 2 sure HOFers in Manu and David Robinson. And he played with Manu longer than Kobe and Shaq played together.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:02 PM
Shaq had lots of skills. He was the most unstoppable force at his peak, he just never worked hard enough year round to have that peak extend longer than it was.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:03 PM
other than scoring, rebounding, blocking shots and being one of the best passing big men of all time, he had no skills.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:07 PM
is “lazy as fuck” a skill?
for making me laugh, yes
+1
May 25th, 2012 at 2:08 PM
other than scoring, rebounding, blocking shots and being one of the best passing big men of all time, he had no skills.
i open myself up as not an nba maven, and this is the treatment i get? hardly kid gloves darrel
May 25th, 2012 at 2:09 PM
The immense underrating of Tim Duncan in this thread is blowing my mind.
Duncan was and currently is the franchise guy on this team. It shouldn’t even really be a question for anyone that knows basketball well. He had a couple down years the last two, but he’s playing well and has played well all season. Minutes are down, but his production has been remarkably consistent.
Also, he’s clearly an all-time great. Top 10, probably. I think you can place him right above or right below Kobe Bryant on the all-time list, depending on how you feel about Kobe.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:09 PM
Manu is on the Kobe/Shaq level now.
I suppose it’s Shaq’s own fault that he is considered a fat lazy fuck. Dude was a tremendous athlete in his prime and had a great scoring touch, unstoppable from inside 5 feet. Most physically gifted big man in the history of the game.
Skinny Shaq highlights
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=91tnm0Y02YY
May 25th, 2012 at 2:09 PM
hahaha sorry vez, but this.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:10 PM
What are you talking about?
May 25th, 2012 at 2:10 PM
depending on how you feel about Kobe beef.
overrated and expensive
May 25th, 2012 at 2:10 PM
Should have been a “?” at the end of that sentence.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:10 PM
You actually provided a link to their salary in your post.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:12 PM
hahaha sorry vez, but this.
no worries. but what i wa sloking for was a breakdown of his skills, which i know darrell can give. to me shaq was huge and athletic, but what were his skills 9(as opposed to stats)?
i did not know of his passing prowess, so that was nice
May 25th, 2012 at 2:12 PM
other than scoring, rebounding, blocking shots and being one of the best passing big men of all time, he had no skills.
agree with this, I just get the feeling he left so much on the table
May 25th, 2012 at 2:12 PM
OK good. Disregard my last comment. The answer is an emphatic “not even close”.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:13 PM
He could pretty much do anything except shoot jumpers and free throws. But like Ty Webb said, he probably could have been so much more.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:15 PM
Haha, ya that’s the same as playing with a top 5 NBA player in his prime. Robinson was near the end of his career and having back issues. Manu is definitely a basketball HoFer, but mostly for his non-NBA work.
Duncan is ahead of both because of what he accomplished. Just look at his resume and don’t even bother factoring in the fact that he got this recognition despite playing in SA and avoiding the limelight.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:15 PM
Only because you can take Vez!
May 25th, 2012 at 2:20 PM
Here:
How much do you think Gordon will command? $12 mill? That leaves 10-13 for Hibbert. Plenty of room to get it done.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:20 PM
Manu might be a HOFer based on his international play, I guess. As an NBAer he’s a good player who can play great in spurts but has never shown the ability to be consistently dominant. Case in point – the ’05 Finals where he was the best player on the floor in Games 1 and 2 and then disappeared the next two games. And he’s nowhere near the Kobe/Shaq/Duncan stratosphere of top-15 all time players.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:20 PM
I guess the point is if you’ve watched the Spurs play this season, you know Duncan still belongs on TBL’s list of “stars” above.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:23 PM
so, darrel, what iyo were shaq’s skills?..break it down like a scout
May 25th, 2012 at 2:23 PM
LOL.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:24 PM
I think we have found the problem. Blame Duncan for not getting enough highlight ally-oop dunks for his lack of airtime on SC.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:26 PM
Whatttt?
May 25th, 2012 at 2:28 PM
Vez – Shaq’s brute power on the block underrated his actual skills. He had a multitude of moves, soft hands and great feel for passing. Also, for as much as he (deservedly) gets docked for his lack of offseason work, he managed to stay pretty healthy and play at a high level despite taking a physical pounding night in and night out.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:29 PM
Exactly. Duncan didn’t cater to the casual / “ratings-drive” fan. Probably had the best or second-best team in the NBA in 2006 but lost a tough series vs. a very game Mavericks team that prevented another finals appearance (would have been 3 straight).
May 25th, 2012 at 2:37 PM
the referees officiated shaq completely different than any other player in the NBA at time as well, not sure where this fits in the narrative
May 25th, 2012 at 2:38 PM
People need to hop off the Eric Gordon bandwagon. Stats have declined every year since his rookie season and his injuries have gone up.
May 25th, 2012 at 2:42 PM
thanks brawny
/glares at darrell
May 25th, 2012 at 2:44 PM
People need to hop off the Eric Gordon bandwagon. Stats have declined every year since his rookie season and his injuries have gone up.
i assumed they were discussing that limey ben
May 25th, 2012 at 2:52 PM
There is no surprise in your analysis. I’ve been a big NBA fan since the 1979-80 season (Magic and Bird’s first season). Since then, the only team to win a championship without a sure-fire HOF player was the 2003-04 Detroit Pistons. You basically don’t win without a big-time stud or two.
May 25th, 2012 at 3:00 PM
Wade’s a good player but not a franchise player. He’s not ever sniffing the Finals without Shaq or LeBron.
May 25th, 2012 at 3:02 PM
What did he accomplish that they didn’t?
May 25th, 2012 at 3:03 PM
Not really true re: stats – http://espn.go.com/nba/player/stats/_/id/3431/eric-gordon
Injuries are definitely a concern, but there aren’t a lot of high quality 2s in the NBA. Kobe, Wade, Manu, Joe Johnson, Harden…it’s not a deep pool. Then you’ve got Eric Gordon, Afflalo, Monta Ellis, etc. Think Gordon’s the best of that bunch.
May 25th, 2012 at 3:14 PM
VS Shaq: 13 all defensive teams to Shaq’s 3; 9 All NBA 1st-Team vs 8; 2 MVPs vs 1
Vs Kobe: 3 Finals MVPs to 2; Won Rookie of the Year; 2 MVPs vs 1
Please don’t twist this into me saying Kobe and Shaq were not great, because obviously they were. But Duncan is easy to underrate due to his lack of exposure compared to the other 2, whether its his personality or playing in SA. His team has always made the playoffs. He has the highest winning percentage of any players in his era.
May 25th, 2012 at 3:20 PM
Another point to note is that Duncan was making all those NBA first teams at probably the most loaded position in the NBA at the time. Went up against KG, Dirk, C-Webb, Amare, Rasheed, Pau, tail-end of Malone. Some impressive company there.
May 25th, 2012 at 3:22 PM
I am also impressed that the first paragraph of this post contains four links to other TBL articles. Getting a little PFT-ish up in here.
May 25th, 2012 at 3:41 PM
Duncan can absolutely be considered ahead of them on his merits. I don’t get the him being underrated vibe about him on here though. Just from the list of recognitions you’ve listed it would be hard to argue that he’s underrated. I consistently hear him being referred to as one of the greats ever. Barkley calls him the greatest PF ever, which means he’s saying Duncan is better than him. Maybe he’s underexposed, which just may be a good thing and the way he wants it.
May 25th, 2012 at 3:55 PM
Shaq was competing against Dream, Ewing, Robinson, Muotombo, and Mourning for those awards at the Center position.
May 25th, 2012 at 4:04 PM
Darrell, I think we are talking about two different things. Among hard core basketball fans and most analyst, I wouldn’t call him underrated. I speaking more to the casual fan, who only watches if their team is playing or checks out the sports center highlights.
May 25th, 2012 at 4:04 PM
Shaq didnt make 1st team all NBA until his 6th season (’97-98). Ewing was a first-team center just once (1990). Probably the last golden era of NBA centers.
May 25th, 2012 at 4:10 PM
Aside from Mourning, most of those guys were shells of themselves post-1998 (except for maybe Muotombo, who I don’t know if he should be on the list). I think it’s pretty fair to say that the relative talent at PF was higher during the duration of Duncan’s career than the center position during O’Neal’s.
May 25th, 2012 at 4:21 PM
Shaq and Kobe probably cost each other a few MVP’s throughout their careers.
May 25th, 2012 at 4:36 PM
Bored NBA voters are more the culprit because Nash (at least once) and Kidd stole a deserved MVP from Kobe and Shaq, respectively.
Though many have made the argument that the year Kobe won MVP (2008?) he was not the most deserving candidate.
May 25th, 2012 at 6:17 PM
True, but Shaq came into the League in 92, in the midst of the primes of Ewing, Dream and Robinson. The year Robinson won MVP, Shaq could have easily won it. When I mention Dikembe, I have All Defensive Team recognition in mind.
May 25th, 2012 at 6:57 PM
Fair point. I guess too that if you think about Shaq in 1999-2004, no other contemporary ’90s center (likely) would have touched him in his prime. Maybe Dream in 94-96. So he missed hitting their most dominant years with his most dominant years, which hurt him as well.
Muotombo makes sense in that regard as I wasn’t thinking about defense, just all-NBA. Still think that the PFs Duncan went up, over the course of his career, were better but I’ll admit that it’s closer than I originally thought. Still – early to mid 2000s Western Conference power forwards might of been one of the best runs of single position talent in NBA history.
May 25th, 2012 at 9:38 PM
Oh that position ran deep for certain, and I know I’m about to set myself up with this, but:………….Its one of the main reasons Melo couldn’t make the All Star game his first few years