What is the Rams’ Second Overall Pick Really Worth? Not Nearly as Much as the Rams Want
ESPN “Broke News” yesterday that St. Louis would trade their second overall pick, even flashing it on their crawl. (On a similar note, I’m breaking news that Kansas City will draft Andrew Luck at 11th overall if he were to somehow slip that far.) The details–things like to whom, and for how much–actual newsworthy items, were of course unannounced. Obviously, the Rams want to trade that second pick. RG III is hot, they have Bradford, and would like to rack up.
Of course, the issue is what the pick might be worth. Andrew Brandt said, “Draft trade chart flawed with new CBA. Top picks are same quality player at half the price, lesser cost brings higher value.” The Rams front office now loves Andrew Brandt. The second sentence is true. The problem with that statement, though, is that the draft trade chart was already terminally flawed. It was never based on actual results and analysis. It’s real creator was Dallas minority owner Mike McCoy, and what he did was look at four years worth of draft day trades, then create a chart based on the trades that happened so Dallas would have a quick reference of perceived value. Thus, a circular argument was created, draft pick trades are worth what specific teams decided to do between 1987 to 1990, and since then has become a self-fulfilling cycle.
No one bothered to actually check whether it matched reality of true asset worth. It was also created prior to the free agency era and escalating rookie costs for top picks (though no doubt the fact that teams placed so much “value” on those picks contributed to the rise). So when Andrew Brandt says it is flawed, it was always flawed. In recent years, the “value chart” has significantly overvalued the worth of the top 5 picks in trades, considering the costs.
As it turns out, even setting aside costs, it overvalues those top picks based only on relative performance difference. The Harvard Sports Analysis Collective (HSAC) has this chart, based on Approximate Value work done at pro-football-reference. Approximate Value is just that, an approximate number assigned to careers based on things like number of starting seasons, pro bowl selections, all pro selections, and the quality of the team on which the player was a starter. You can find exception with particular “Approximate Values” for a player, but over time, it provides a pretty good look at large groups of players, like draft picks. What we see is what we expect, the career values steadily decrease as draft position goes down.
However, the shape of that curve is not as steep as the Draft Value Chart used by most teams, meaning that the top picks are overvalued. The HSAC has a chart that illustrates this. They also a measure they call CAVOA (Career Approximate Value Over Average) that assigns a percentage to how valuable a pick is worth relative to the average pick. For example, the first pick is worth 494.6% of the average pick (or almost 5 times as much career value). However, I’m not sure how that helps me figure out how to combine picks, knowing that the second pick is worth 435% the average, and the fourth overall pick is worth 377% of the average pick. What picks do I then need to add?
So, I converted it back to the average Career Value by position based on the percentages in that chart. The next step is understanding the role of replacement value. Roster spots are finite, so a team can’t just draft 30 sixth round picks knowing they will get a few gems. If a team doesn’t have a draft pick, they sign an extra undrafted free agent for the same spot. So, 7th round picks have very low value anyway, but they have a minuscule amount of replacement value over just signing a UDFA. I set replacement value at a Career Approximate Value of 5, and subtracted that from all pick values.
So, let’s take a look at how the “Draft Value Chart” and looking at historical performance data differs in what the pick is worth. Also, because Robert Griffin III is a quarterback, and could be considered worthy of the first overall pick in other years, we can look at it from the value of the first overall pick. The Rams might do so in negotiations, and we’ll give them the benefit of the doubt here. Thus, we are viewing him through the prism of the chances of turning out like David Carr or Tim Couch, or Peyton Manning or John Elway, and all points in between.
Here are four teams that could be interested, and how the Chart versus the Actual Results differ [Note: I did not go through each team's picks to see what had been traded all ready, but just used the picks they would have if they had one in each round]:
CLEVELAND BROWNS (4th overall pick)
Using Draft Value Chart, Rams would want: EVERY PICK IN THIS YEAR’S DRAFT PLUS 2013 2ND ROUND
Using Career Value, Rams should get: THE 4TH OVERALL PICK (1st ROUND) AND THE 36TH OVERALL PICK (2nd ROUND)
WASHINGTON REDSKINS (6th overall pick)
Using Draft Value Chart, Rams would want: EVERY PICK IN THIS YEAR’S DRAFT PLUS 2013 1ST ROUND
Using Career Value, Rams should get: THE 6TH OVERALL PICK (1st ROUND) THE 38TH OVERALL PICK (2nd ROUND), AND 6TH ROUND PICK
MIAMI DOLPHINS (8th overall pick)
Using Draft Value Chart, Rams would want: EVERY PICK IN THIS YEAR’S DRAFT PLUS 2013 1ST AND 2ND ROUND
Using Career Value, Rams should get: THE 8TH OVERALL PICK (1st ROUND) THE 40TH OVERALL PICK (2nd ROUND), AND 4TH ROUND PICK [WITH ST. LOUIS GIVING UP ITS 7TH ROUND PICK ALSO]
KANSAS CITY CHIEFS (11th overall pick)
Using Draft Value Chart, Rams would want: EVERY PICK IN THIS YEAR’S DRAFT PLUS 2013 1ST AND 2ND ROUND PLUS 2014 1ST ROUND
Using Career Value, Rams should get: THE 11TH OVERALL PICK (1st ROUND) AND THE 43RD OVERALL PICK (2nd ROUND) AND THE 75TH OVERALL PICK (3RD ROUND)
As we see, there is quite a bit of difference between the trade value chart and reality of historical performance dropoff. Cleveland and Washington would be overpaying by almost an entire draft class if both sides choose to follow the chart. Miami would be overpaying by more than an entire draft class. Kansas City would overpay by two future firsts, a future second, and every pick between rounds 4 and 7 by following that darned chart.
The Draft Value Chart has created a currency crisis. No one actually believes those values, yet they are paralyzed to act outside it. The Rams will feel taken if they don’t get this insane haul, when in actuality, there alternative to a trade with Cleveland is to take the player they want (at least one of which will be there at #4) while getting no extra picks. The others will feel the price is too steep.
If I were the others, I would make the Rams come down. This isn’t 1991, and those trade values never reflected true worth anyway. If the Rams are too strict, they will find that their demand goes down when trade partners go elsewhere.
[photo via US Presswire]

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107 Responses to “What is the Rams’ Second Overall Pick Really Worth? Not Nearly as Much as the Rams Want”
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February 28th, 2012 at 4:06 PM
What if the Rams second overall pick were white?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:10 PM
Stats say draft position doesn’t matter
February 28th, 2012 at 4:11 PM
Well, this seems rather, shall we say, industrious doesn’t it?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:11 PM
It would be awesome if the Browns got RG3.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:12 PM
So what your saying is ATL really got hosed last year by Cleveland?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:13 PM
If a team in the market for a QB traded into the 3rd spot, what does that do for the Rams pick… would it increase or decrease in value?
I’d kinda love to see them wait too long and have to take a last-second shitty offer.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:14 PM
Can I get a link or explanation for this?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:14 PM
You know what the biggest problem with the draft trade chart was in the first place? It was used to justify trading up to #1 to get Raghib Ismail. And then he went to the CFL and the trade ended up being for Russell Maryland.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:14 PM
Is this a new meme I missed?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:15 PM
Considering the lack of consistency Julio Jones showed on my fantasy roster last year, I’d say yes.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:16 PM
He’s saying Atlanta dropped the ball… ironic considering that seems to be a prominent feature of Jones’ skillset
February 28th, 2012 at 4:16 PM
Yes.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:16 PM
Nice analysis, Lisk. But (and I think you know this), there is no such thing as should in an auction, especially a blind auction. That is what what drives overvaluation.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:17 PM
No, because whomever trades for the No. 2 pick will have to give up a shit ton. This is an interesting post as it doesn’t really reflect reality. If a team in the late 20′s wants a to get into the top-6 they will have to give up what Atlanta got. The real question should be: Does this prove that a team should never trade up into the top-6 for a WR when initially picking in the mid 20′s?
That answer is a big yes.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:17 PM
Care to jmorris or link it?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:18 PM
I gotta admit, this would’ve made your point much better.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:18 PM
It’s all thanks to the WWL.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:18 PM
I have been laughing at the Vikings for days. They started dangling the #3 pick past week as a place to get RGIII, and nobody even bothered to laugh at them. They wanted a king’s ransom, too.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:19 PM
Never realized Seko Toure wrote that.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:20 PM
Can’t blame them for trying. But yeah…they are a pick shy of being in the hot spot that everyone wants.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:20 PM
Also would like to see a team trade into the 2nd spot and then trade it for better picks, just as a “fuck you” to the Rams.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:21 PM
When a well spoken black man is avaiable, you have to take him
February 28th, 2012 at 4:21 PM
That’s why these deals go down on draft day and not before
February 28th, 2012 at 4:22 PM
I know I’ve said it before but this actually played a part in Carolina drafting Cam.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:23 PM
That would be fantastic. Browns should do this. Then trade with the Skins, draft Claiborne and form an amazing CB duo.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:23 PM
Link?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:24 PM
It would be awesome if the Browns got RG3.
please, no. i dont want to see my favorite athlete since hakeem fail that fast.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:24 PM
Nice work list. I agree that front offices seemed paralyzed to take a fair deal when the public perception would be that they got hosed (save for a few teams).
February 28th, 2012 at 4:24 PM
The fuck it would.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:25 PM
I could get behind this.
Fuck all things St. Louis.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:26 PM
He meant “nice wort Lisk”.
/beer
February 28th, 2012 at 4:26 PM
That and the fact that Jerry Richardson liked that he didn’t have any tattoos.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:26 PM
Y’all have AJ Green. You’ll be alright.
/Team AJ
February 28th, 2012 at 4:27 PM
Don’t see why any of those teams moves up. You need to plug multiple holes and would set yourself back if you just go get RG3.
If you’re Cleveland, stay where you are and take whoever slips to you: Griffin, Kalil or Blackmon.
If you’re Washington, don’t trade more draft picks away chasing that one great QB hope.
If you’re Miami, take Vontaze Burfict and enroll him at Da U.
If you’re Kansas City, trade down and acquire more picks (a Bellichick).
February 28th, 2012 at 4:27 PM
I can’t be the only one who is skeptical about RGIII in the pros, right?
/was skeptical about Cam Newton too
February 28th, 2012 at 4:27 PM
Jerry Richardson called Newton three weeks before the draft and asked him questions about himself, including whether he had any tattoos. It was a really creepy admission by Richardson.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:28 PM
I’m skeptical about Andrew Luck. Cause fuck Jim Irsay, that’s why.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:28 PM
Just as long as he didn’t have any tattoos
February 28th, 2012 at 4:28 PM
Someone needs to do the move I used to do in my Madden franchises. Just keep trading down picks for a draft down the road — say like 2016, then youll have like 15 first rounders. It’s a flawless plan.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:29 PM
This. I can’t stand when the Niners move up to get someone. When you have holes, multiple good players are better than one great one….provided that any of them pan out.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:31 PM
Atlanta has a great WR for the next 5 years at least, but now they have 5-6 holes to fill. They have to hit homeruns with their 2nd and 3rd round picks this year to justify the Julio trade, yet I have little faith that will happen.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:31 PM
The Shaq post got me thinking of the last time two dominate centers faced off in the NBA Finals. It has to be Shaq and Dream, right? Ewing was hurt in 99 so he didn’t get to face Robinson. Pretty fucking sad if you ask me..
February 28th, 2012 at 4:32 PM
Back in the day I would sign a ton of free agents I didn’t really want and then trade them all for picks, then package to picks and stock up on first rounders.
Drafting/recruiting are the best parts of the football video games.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:32 PM
So…would give Julio away and keep all those picks?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:32 PM
I can’t be the only one who is skeptical about RGIII in the pros, right?
i am a little too. mainly because he looks like he gets stabbed every time he got tackled, and he will be getting tackled quite a bit harder in the nfl.
other than that, he has what you need to be successfull.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:32 PM
Certainly not, but I’m curious as to why some are skeptical.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:33 PM
That’s why these deals go down on draft day and not before
True. The Rams are in an interesting spot though because of the Peyton Manning factor, which doesn’t happen every decade and could undercut the market.
Also, for fun, go look up the archived details of the Bernie Kosar saga in 1985.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:33 PM
/nods
The offseason >>>>>> The regular season
February 28th, 2012 at 4:33 PM
Me
February 28th, 2012 at 4:34 PM
It has to be Shaq and Dream, right? Ewing was hurt in 99 so he didn’t get to face Robinson. Pretty fucking sad if you ask me..
hakeem abused shaq hard in that series, just like he bitch slapped every center from 86-95.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:34 PM
So this is a Harvard Sports Analysis Collective blog now?
More importantly, how much is Jeremy Lin worth: EVERY PICK IN THIS YEAR’S DRAFT
February 28th, 2012 at 4:34 PM
i am a little too. mainly because he looks like he gets stabbed every time he got tackled, and he will be getting tackled quite a bit harder in the nfl.
other than that, he has what you need to be successfull.
I like Griffin, and this is my concern. He took a fair amount of hits, had a knee injury, and I saw him take his time getting up quite a few times. He is not Roethlisberger or Newton in being able to absorb punishment.
His downfield passing is excellent.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:35 PM
I honestly don’t think so. I mean, they would have had the 24th (ish) pick this year to go along with the 27th pick last year and a second rounder. I think Julio will be a top-5 WR in 3 years (maybe 2) so they got a great player, and I’m not sure you can say you’re going to get a great player as late as they would have picked. The issue, though, is the depth they would have gotten with those picks. I like the boldness of it, but I wish they would have been a bit more bold and asked Cincy what they wanted for their pick so they could have landed AJ.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:35 PM
I’m skeptical but I only saw him play one game, where he was outplayed by the Washington QB and overshadowed by his running backs. Confidence, intelligence, leadership and coaching goes a long way in the pros and he has the first three by all accounts. If he gets the 4th, he’ll be fine.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:35 PM
Interesting that the first thing that came up in my auto-complete on Google for Bernie Kosar was “daughter porn.”
February 28th, 2012 at 4:36 PM
Back in the day I would sign a ton of free agents I didn’t really want and then trade them all for picks, then package to picks and stock up on first rounders.
Yes, also a great “kinda cheating, but who cares b\c it’s only you” video game move. A brother of the create a player soley for the purposes of trading them. This was my move in the NHL series, where I would name people like “TRADEFOR BURE” and I would trade that person for Pavel Bure.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:36 PM
its almost like a dying position. There is Dwight Howard and………
February 28th, 2012 at 4:36 PM
To be fair, I’m skeptical of all college quarterbacks.
Lisk, didn’t you do a comparison once on where every teams starting QB was drafted? It’s pretty much half and half between first rounders and later round guys. It helps now that there are salary restrictions in place so teams aren’t getting boned on high pick busts.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:37 PM
The Center is a dying breed…
February 28th, 2012 at 4:37 PM
Interesting, because much like their ads, I’m pretty sure Google customizes their suggestions based on your personal search history.*
*may not be entirely true
February 28th, 2012 at 4:38 PM
Football Manager is the best for this. It is a soccer computer game that is everything except for playing the actual games, you watch the games get played, but you control the training, signings, contracts, interacting with the media, everything. And can tamper with every bit of data you want to. I lose entire weeks on that thing.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:38 PM
Bernie Kosar’s daughter is pretty busted if anyone was wondering. Not worth your time.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:39 PM
Sounds like the Chefs need to do this deal stat.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:39 PM
I like Griffin, and this is my concern. He took a fair amount of hits, had a knee injury, and I saw him take his time getting up quite a few times. He is not Roethlisberger or Newton in being able to absorb punishment.
His downfield passing is excellent.
the knee is fully healed, shouldnt be too much of a concern. i have watched just about every snap since he was a freshman, and he looked just as fast last year when he returned.
its funny, he got knocked for not being able to throw deep until the OU game this year. that, of course, is totally rediculous. he has been able to throw deep the whole time.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:40 PM
What’s this “downfield passing” you speak of?
NHL 94 >>>>>>>>> Every other hockey game
February 28th, 2012 at 4:40 PM
Atlanta has a great WR for the next 5 years at least, but now they have 5-6 holes to fill. They have to hit homeruns with their 2nd and 3rd round picks this year to justify the Julio trade, yet I have little faith that will happen.
That’s part of the problem with making big deals like that — you end up increasing the pressure on each successive pick to work.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:40 PM
It’s definitely customized, since if you type in “restaurant” whereever you are, I think it’ll bring up “restaurants in CityX”
February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 PM
I’d say there’s a lot of chucker in him but in the disgusting Big 12 it didn’t matter. Lots of B12 passers put up really big numbers lately.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 PM
Injury aside, I can’t see how RGIII isn’t a good NFL QB. He’s too smart and too talented in my opinion. Other guys may have had his talent, but not his mental makeup or vice versa, but those with the same skill set (if there are any) surely would succeed as long as they stay healthy.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 PM
If you’re Miami, take Vontaze Burfict and enroll him at Da U
The combine may not matter but that guy is way too slow to see the field for the Canes
February 28th, 2012 at 4:41 PM
Shaq v. Ben Wallace, then Duncan v. Ben Wallace.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:42 PM
Football Manager is the best for this. It is a soccer computer game that is everything except for playing the actual games, you watch the games get played, but you control the training, signings, contracts, interacting with the media, everything. And can tamper with every bit of data you want to. I lose entire weeks on that thing.
I have played around with Out Of The park and that is a similar sim gamebut for baseball. By most all accounts the football manager game is amazing, I need to get my hands on it.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:42 PM
I just tried this. Didn’t work. It said “restaurants in Cleveland.” Nothing about CityX.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:43 PM
That league, save for Texas (whom I loathe) just refuses to play defense. Mizzou will see more good defenses in one year playing in the SEC then they would have in the past 5 years in the Big 12 (Bama, UGA, South Carolina, Florida, Tenn).
February 28th, 2012 at 4:44 PM
I forgot that Wallace was dropping 28 and 10 during those Finals..
February 28th, 2012 at 4:44 PM
hibbert’s got promise
February 28th, 2012 at 4:47 PM
God. Mizzou has road games at Kyle Field, The Swamp and at Neyland Stadium to go along with home games with Bama and Georgia. Yikes.
/7-5′d
February 28th, 2012 at 4:48 PM
I pirate it each year. Have one cocksucker demanding I sell him now, I’m going to ruin his career.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:50 PM
I’m sure his off-the-field behavior and intangibles make him a good fit in Coral Gables, even if his 40 time is slow.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:50 PM
Be honest. It really says “restaurants in Cleveland
“
February 28th, 2012 at 4:51 PM
Football Manager is the best for this. It is a soccer computer game that is everything except for playing the actual games, you watch the games get played, but you control the training, signings, contracts, interacting with the media, everything. And can tamper with every bit of data you want to. I lose entire weeks on that thing.
I have played around with Out Of The park and that is a similar sim gamebut for baseball. By most all accounts the football manager game is amazing, I need to get my hands on it.
Try the cheap version for iPhone/iPad. $10 vs the full PC version of $40.
And yes, it is addictive.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:53 PM
Have one cocksucker demanding I sell him now, I’m going to ruin his career.
I do miss one way relationships with fake athletes.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:53 PM
Sarcasm?
February 28th, 2012 at 4:54 PM
Or the jailbroken version for $0.00
February 28th, 2012 at 4:56 PM
What’s this “downfield passing” you speak of?
you cant be serious.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:58 PM
I think he’s talking about Alex Smith… not Griffin.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:58 PM
Nice tweet by TBL “Love The hype over a MUST HAVE “franchise qb”….in a year when Alex Smith & joe Flacco came within inches of gettin gto the super bowl”
February 28th, 2012 at 4:59 PM
Pretty sure this was a shot at his beloved 49ers and their lack of a passing attack.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:59 PM
Yes.
February 28th, 2012 at 4:59 PM
What is it about the 4 time defensive player of the year that doesn’t make that a top matchup?
February 28th, 2012 at 5:00 PM
He just jilted over his team wasting picks to trade up to select Sanchez only to watch him turn into an average* QB.
*being generous
February 28th, 2012 at 5:00 PM
Don’t get sucked in….don’t get sucked in….don’t get sucked in….
February 28th, 2012 at 5:02 PM
You framed it in the Dominant Center discussion, something he was not. He was great off ball defender and rebounder though. However, since he was invisible on the offensive side, he was far from dominant.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:02 PM
Don’t get sucked in….don’t get sucked in….don’t get sucked in….
Yeah, though the late afternoon crowd should know
February 28th, 2012 at 5:03 PM
He was dominant. It was just on the other side of the ball.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:04 PM
If only my blocking TBL on Twitter carried over to not being able to see his work here, sigh
February 28th, 2012 at 5:04 PM
If only my blocking TBL on Twitter carried over to not being able to see his work here, sigh
You blocked him?
February 28th, 2012 at 5:05 PM
I thought the Draft Value Chart now had value because the price of high 1st round pick were fixed again.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:11 PM
Yes 50% on the time he was dominant 100% of the time.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:15 PM
I try to keep trolls out of my feed, he joins an exclusive club that also features Rovell and Skip Bayless…only problem though is when people do the RT [Troll Tweet] thing instead of just hitting Re-Tweet
February 28th, 2012 at 5:18 PM
What’s the difference? Just curious…I am just a following non-tweeter.
February 28th, 2012 at 5:21 PM
If you just hit Re-Tweet you’ll see it in your feed as if it came from them with a note saying who you follow that posted it, if it’s done this way and I have that person blocked I don’t see it…otherwise you can copy someone’s name and Tweet and post it from your account so if I’m following you I can’t escape what Skip has to say about something
February 28th, 2012 at 5:22 PM
Got it. Thanks.
February 28th, 2012 at 7:43 PM
Maybe the inches which kept those two teams out of the Super Bowl was not having a franchise QB.
February 28th, 2012 at 7:43 PM
thanks, King!
February 28th, 2012 at 7:47 PM
He was being sarcastic.
February 28th, 2012 at 8:13 PM
As a Browns fan I do not want them to trade up. Fill the other holes on the roster and go FA for a QB.