Seth Davis Thinks RPI is for Inefficient Winners While Ken Pomeroy Rankings are for Efficient Losers
The NCAA is conducting its mock NCAA tournament selection exercise this week (the results should come out today), and so talk has turned to the method by which the committee selects teams. That, of course, means criticism of the RPI, a ranking system that most people find to be inadequate compared to other options.
Seth Davis, though, tweeted out this morning, “I don’t get the argument that NCAA should value Pomeroy ratings ahead of RPI. Would you rather be efficient and lose or inefficient and win?”
(Last year, I talked about how RPI is measured, and criticized it, so check that out if you don’t know what this is about.)
Basically, RPI does not use any margin of victory, and then bases “strength of schedule” on RPI. Pomeroy takes into account underlying efficiency stats and per possession numbers, to calculate team ratings and strength of schedule.
But how much of a straw man is this statement about losing efficiently versus winning inefficiently? I immediately responded, “I feel like this falsely states the issue. New Mexico and Southern Miss are both 20-4 against DI. Systems rank differently.”
I thought I would go into more detail and actually do some research here. Davis’ statement would imply that the Pomeroy rankings feature a bunch of teams that lose a lot more games but look really good when they do, while the RPI rewards winners.
I went through all teams currently rated in the Top 30 in either the RPI or Pomeroy (or both), where there was a difference of at least 6 spots in the relative rankings. That gave me a nice round eleven teams in each group – those rated higher by RPI and those rated higher by Pomeroy. We can view these as teams where there are differences, so let’s see if the “RPI teams” do win a lot more games.
The RPI teams won 77.9% of their games against Division I opponents (19.4 wins to 5.5 losses on average). The Pomeroy teams won 75.3% (19.2 wins to 6.3 losses on average).
That’s pretty similar, especially considering that the RPI teams played more non-D-I opponents, featured more non-BCS conference teams, and were higher rated by RPI (11.7) than the Pomeroy teams were rated by his system (14.2). This belief that the RPI has winners and Pomeroy has lovable losers is false. They just measure teams differently. I know this is shocking, Pomeroy’s rankings tend to like teams that win.
Here are teams where RPI and Pomeroy are near mirror images of each other in the two ratings, one liking one team over the other. The RPI-favored team is listed first.
- Duke (22-4, 3rd RPI, 14th Pom) versus Ohio State (22-4, 8th RPI, 2nd Pom)
- Baylor (22-4, 7th RPI, 15th Pom) versus Wichita State (23-4, 16th RPI, 9th Pom)
- Marquette (21-5, 11th RPI, 20th Pom) versus St. Louis (21-5, 22nd RPI, 10th Pom)
- UNLV (22-5, 12th RPI, 28th Pom) versus New Mexico (21-4, 29th RPI, 11th Pom)
- Gonzaga (21-4, 18th RPI, 30th Pom) versus California (21-6, 35th RPI, 18th Pom)
- Temple (20-5, 17th RPI, 34th Pom) versus Texas (17-9, 38th RPI, 19th Pom)
- Connecticut (16-9, 21st RPI, 37th Pom) versus Virginia (19-6, 40th RPI, 23rd Pom)
- Seton Hall (18-8, 30th RPI, 45th Pom) versus Alabama (16-9, 39th RPI, 29th Pom)
- San Diego State (20-5, 27th RPI, 57th Pom) versus Kansas State (17-8, 61st RPI, 27th Pom)
Look at that list. Do the RPI teams on the left really look like a bunch of “inefficient winners” compared to those “efficient losers” on the right side? The interesting thing here: The Pomeroy teams in the pairs are 2-1 head to head: Ohio State beat Duke by 22. Texas beat Temple by 12, while UNLV beat New Mexico by 17 earlier (and they rematch tomorrow at New Mexico).
Three weeks ago, I did a post on the teams where there was the largest disagreement between RPI and the Pomeroy and Sagarin ratings, among possible tournament at-large teams.
In the meantime, what has happened to those RPI All-Stars? They have seen their RPI rating decline by 5 spots on average, while their Pomeroy ranking stayed the same. The largest decline was also the team that was #1 on the list, Colorado State, who have dropped 14 more spots from 22 to 36 in the RPI.
Meanwhile, the Pomeroy and Sagarin All-Stars have seen the RPI rankings actually move toward them, improving in RPI by 11.2 spots on average, with Texas, St. Louis, and Indiana making large jumps. Meanwhile, their Pomeroy rankings have stayed stable (actually dropping 1.4 slots on average).
Guess what that means when one ranking system changes by moving toward the other, in both cases? Which one do you think is more accurate?
So, RPI is not the only tool, that’s what this later tweet suggests:
This creates a false contrast. No one is arguing that the committee use a rating system like Pomeroy, Sagarin, the new ESPN-created BPI, or whatever, exclusively to select and seed teams either. I agree that the committee will not seed Southern Miss as a #3 seed, but in a post-Pomeroy world where those ratings would be used as a tool, no one is seeding Wisconsin as a #2 either.
Think of it as building a house. Would you use just one tool to build a house? No. You wouldn’t. But you would be far better at your job if you used a nail gun and compressor, rather than a rusty old hammer and hand nailing everything.
Or think of it as the underlying language. The committee may say that they use it as a tool only. They probably don’t seed Southern Miss as the tenth best team. However, I can tell you that going through these exercises and teams is time-consuming. Language aids us in taking shortcuts in communicating information. So while they may, after looking at a team, recognize that Southern Miss and Colorado State are overrated, do they then go through each resume after that? No, because that language still pervades the meeting room. Why do you think “bracketologists” are pretty good at getting the teams right? They know the garbled language the committee relies on.
And it is garbled. With the various weights, with no account for how teams won, it becomes like the whisper game, where Colorado State looks better, so Southern Miss and Duke look better, and it keeps going. So despite what they claim, “Colorado State” becomes converted to “Top 40 win” and it shows up on a nice little summary that is printed out.
You would think they would want to improve the language. Right now, though, we can’t get past misrepresenting what the languages are actually saying. The teams ranked higher by Pomeroy aren’t typically losers.
[photo via U.S. Presswire]

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59 Responses to “Seth Davis Thinks RPI is for Inefficient Winners While Ken Pomeroy Rankings are for Efficient Losers”
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February 17th, 2012 at 12:10 PM
That’s some good work, there. Can’t resist this though – http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=-pKv8SCoobE
February 17th, 2012 at 12:13 PM
Agree completely
/j-mac
February 17th, 2012 at 12:14 PM
The thing about computer ranking systems is that we can check to see how they’ve done historically in predicting winners of things like NCAA tournament games. Pomeroy has done a better job than the RPI based on the published data (2003-2011).
February 17th, 2012 at 12:15 PM
SG will love this.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:19 PM
LOL! very nice.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
The system should be used to determine who is expected to win games going forward. It’s not “rewarding” anything.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
OMIGOD. They are always smiling, too cute.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
Pomeroy? Sagarin? RPI? Sounds a lot like the bastion of all things evil, otherwise known as the BCS.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
I still don’t think Seth understands who exactly is supposed to be in the tournament when he is arguing RPI/KenPom.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:30 PM
Tim Wakefield retires after 19 seasons.
/watches CJ pour one out
February 17th, 2012 at 12:32 PM
Tek is next… hopefully one or both of them stay with the team in some way.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:33 PM
Great stuff Lisk
February 17th, 2012 at 12:35 PM
Agree completely
I think this one may have some legs…
/heist movies
February 17th, 2012 at 12:42 PM
No offense but it sounds like a lot of hand-wringing over what is really a pretty straightforward thing: there’s some debate over who gets the #1 and #2 seeds and who are the last in/first out, but the tournament field is pretty obvious by this point.
Or am I totally off my rocker?
February 17th, 2012 at 12:43 PM
/tumbleweed
February 17th, 2012 at 12:44 PM
Dead quiet at the office going into the 3-day weekend. Boss is letting us go one-hour early enough but time is draggggggggging and no one is in here either.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:45 PM
/tumbleweed
Dead quiet at the office going into the 3-day weekend.
4-day weekend coming up here with Mardi Gras on Tuesday.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:46 PM
Hate the sox, can’t hate Wakefield.
/tips cap
February 17th, 2012 at 12:46 PM
/tumbleweed
Has anyone ever been to the Tumbleweed restaurant chain? They had them in central Ohio — it was like a franchise steakhouse, their commercials had the best music.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:47 PM
Think of it as building a house. Would you use just one tool to build a house? No. You wouldn’t. But you would be far better at your job if you used a nail gun and compressor, rather than a rusty old hammer and hand nailing everything.
you need to finish this analogy. Something about how you don’t hang a picture with a nail gun and compressor. Unless you’re saying that a compressor is a tool independent of a nail gun, and that you can build a whole house with just a compressor and a nail gun. Because you can’t insulate with a nail gun. That would be opposite.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:48 PM
Speaking of – I have a question for the New Orleans folks – what does it mean if I get the little baby figurine in my piece of King cake?
February 17th, 2012 at 12:48 PM
FIVE. The school district is giving us Ash Wednesday off to compensate for the Leap Day.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:48 PM
MP Says:
How about Children of the Porn? How about Ming Pie-Nasty? How about Bad Bad Me-roy Brown?
Change it dude.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:49 PM
You have to buy the next one.
Many places don’t do that any more because people were freaking out that children would choke on it.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:49 PM
I wish I had a job where we took days off for BS holidays
February 17th, 2012 at 12:50 PM
How about Children of the Porn? How about Ming Pie-Nasty? How about Bad Bad Me-roy Brown?
Change it dude.
How about looking at the avatar?
February 17th, 2012 at 12:50 PM
I freaked out because I had never heard of a king cake, someone just dropped it off in our break room. Cut off a piece and there’s a baby leg sticking out.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:50 PM
p.s. Doesn’t college basketball season begin in a month? A month before NBA starts?
February 17th, 2012 at 12:51 PM
Don’t work in the school system here but they are getting a 5 day weekend because they haven’t used any snow days this year.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:51 PM
How about looking at the avatar?
I find the two avatars to be markedly similar, in that they are both teeny tiny and have a design on them.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:52 PM
Go on…
February 17th, 2012 at 12:52 PM
No offense but it sounds like a lot of hand-wringing over what is really a pretty straightforward thing: there’s some debate over who gets the #1 and #2 seeds and who are the last in/first out, but the tournament field is pretty obvious by this point.
Or am I totally off my rocker?
Yes. Well, it’s not obvious. Texas was largely viewed as out two weeks ago and I have them as an 8 today, with a chance to improve. I’m working on it for this afternoon and plenty of movement.
What I would say is that the top 2 seed lines are largely set–some combination of Kentucky, Syracuse, Kansas, Missouri, Ohio State, Michigan State, Duke and North Carolina, and the issue is just positioning there.
After that, teams can move from a 10 to a 4 with a great stretch run, and there are plenty of 8 seeds and below that could fall out, and others jump up. The bottom of the “bubble” kind of sucks right now, but a few small tournament upsets that make teams like MTSU, Long Beach, Murray State into at-larges shrinks it.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:53 PM
It’s a trade-off in teaching. You still have to make up the days, so we usually start right after New Year’s.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:53 PM
4-day weekend coming up here with Mardi Gras on Tuesday.
FIVE. The school district is giving us Ash Wednesday off to compensate for the Leap Day.
I’m off from school on Ash Wednesday, but I won’t be off from internship. So 4-day weekend for me.
Many places don’t do that any more because people were freaking out that children would choke on it.
I freaked out because I had never heard of a king cake, someone just dropped it off in our break room. Cut off a piece and there’s a baby leg sticking out.
Most king cake makers just leave them out and will leave it up to you to place it into the cake.
Picking up a couple later today for a party. And already shipped all I was going to of them this year.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:54 PM
you need to finish this analogy. Something about how you don’t hang a picture with a nail gun and compressor. Unless you’re saying that a compressor is a tool independent of a nail gun, and that you can build a whole house with just a compressor and a nail gun. Because you can’t insulate with a nail gun. That would be opposite.
You’ve been assigned to picking up the scraps of insulation for your insolence.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:54 PM
do my bare hands qualify as a tool?
February 17th, 2012 at 12:55 PM
You’ve been assigned to picking up the scraps of insulation for your insolence.
mmmm, cotton candy
February 17th, 2012 at 12:56 PM
I should have been a teacher.
Memorial, 4th of july, Labor, Thanksgiving, X-mas, and New Years are the only days off for me.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:56 PM
i built my house with my Leatherman.
February 17th, 2012 at 12:58 PM
Yes. Well, it’s not obvious. Texas was largely viewed as out two weeks ago and I have them as an 8 today, with a chance to improve. I’m working on it for this afternoon and plenty of movement.
After that, teams can move from a 10 to a 4 with a great stretch run, and there are plenty of 8 seeds and below that could fall out, and others jump up. The bottom of the “bubble” kind of sucks right now, but a few small tournament upsets that make teams like MTSU, Long Beach, Murray State into at-larges shrinks it.
That’s why I don’t get the RPI v Pomeroy issue. A lot of this will be settled in the tournaments — bubble teams will either rise up and snatch an automatic bid (making their RPI or Pomeroy Rankings irrelevant) or they will be out early and have to hope and pray other teams aren’t as good (and then the RPI/Pomeroy debate will rage).
February 17th, 2012 at 12:58 PM
and you have to rub the insulation on your bare forearms.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:01 PM
i built my house with my Leatherman.
during the brief time that I was in college, we would occasionally be given leave to go elsewhere, and if we could swing it (which was never) we’d go to other colleges. I went once to Lehigh with a bunch of nerds, and we were in the process of becoming blackout drunk in a basement of somewhere. That somewhere’s basement was lighted with strings of christmas lights.
Being a moron, and possessing a Leatherman tool in my pocket (and no shot at getting laid), I found myself deciding to sabotage the lighting of this basement. So I took the pliers attachment and “bit” a christmas light with it.
I ended up being slightly electrocuted. Later, I was blackout drunk, but that was unrelated.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:02 PM
Meh, when I’m roofing I carry insulation boards between my arms and body and that barely itches. It’s not so bad.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:04 PM
Lehigh eh? Whered you go to school?
February 17th, 2012 at 1:05 PM
Depends on what you value more: money or free time. We’re not suffering, but I could be making a HELL of a lot more money with a year-round job.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:06 PM
Cut off a piece and there’s a baby leg sticking out.
Awesome – nice picture.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:07 PM
Whered you go to school?
nowhere near Lehigh. One doofus was just from there, and he knew a girl who played field hockey. So we drove for a weekend of not getting laid and getting alcohol poisoning.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:07 PM
Would you use just one tool to build a house?
i built my house with my Leatherman.
Best tool I ever bought. Every home should have one.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:09 PM
holy shit today is boring.
i’d take a long article arguing the media is actually downplaying Lin and Tebow at this point.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:10 PM
Maybe it’s because mine was generic, but I don’t like them at all. I keep a separate tool box for electrical stuff, and for repair stuff, etc. If you are doing something, get the right tool. A leatherman will get eaten up 10 gauge wire. Nothing I hate more than having the wrong-shaped pliers or the wrong size philips screwdriver head.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:12 PM
I had to google Leatherman
/it has a different connotation in my world.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:13 PM
oh, look who’s the tough guy! fiberglass makes me itch sumpin fierce…whether is’t insulation or some kind of FRP lumber.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:13 PM
If you are doing something, get the right tool.
Concur.
For me, there are a ton of small jobs around the apartment or car where it comes in handy, quickly. And, it’s pocket-sized.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:14 PM
A Leatherman is good for if you are backpacking or something, and having a bunch of tools is impractical. For home stuff, everyone (male and female) should a tool box with standard hammer/6in1 screwdriver/pliers/needlenose pliers etc/
February 17th, 2012 at 1:14 PM
Off topic:
If you think that Clevelanders have forgotten about being spurned by #23…
As Tweeted by Jason Lloyd from the Akron Beacon Journal:
Jason Lloyd @JasonLloydABJPolice sweeping Q right now with bomb sniffing dog. Asked a cop if this was standard before every game. "Nope, just for that asshole."
Awesome.
/To me
February 17th, 2012 at 1:15 PM
.
Fiberglass is very itchy, but I would rather bath in it than tear off coal tar pitch. Which is the worst thing ever created.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:15 PM
…and we carried ‘em inflight. Could do a lot of quick maintenance items during the mission without losing a lot of time.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:15 PM
i agree completely. when i moved into my house i found myself using it 4-5 times a week for quick things, tightening screws, removing light switch plates, pulling out mollies and anchors, etc.
February 17th, 2012 at 1:15 PM
hilarious.