Shouldn’t Syracuse Be the No. 1 Overall NCAA Tournament Seed Over Kentucky?
I’m passing no judgment on whether or not the following metrics are fair or make sense when it comes to seeding the NCAA Tournament. But they are the metrics used by the NCAA tournament committee, so until changes are made, you’re going to have to deal with them. (Yes, I realize everyone hates the RPI. I’m not a huge fan myself.) Here’s a quick comparison of the two best teams in the country, 1-loss Syracuse and 1-loss Kentucky:
RPI:
Syracuse 1
Kentucky 3
Strength of Schedule:
Syracuse 11
Kentucky 73
Non-conference Strength of Schedule:
Syracuse 30
Kentucky 113
Record vs. RPI Top 25:
Syracuse 5-0
Kentucky 4-1
Record vs. the RPI Top 26-50:
Syracuse 3-1
Kentucky 2-0
Each team’s loss isn’t a bad one: Syracuse was without Fab Melo, its center who is 12th in the country in blocked shots, and lost on the road to Notre Dame (RPI: 36). Kentucky lost on a buzzer-beater on the road to Indiana (RPI: 15).
Here’s where it gets interesting – let’s say Syracuse wins out. And Kentucky wins out. If you just compare the above numbers, Syracuse has to be the top overall seed, right? The problem arises when you take a closer look at the schedules.
Kentucky’s best four wins – vs. UNC (at Rupp), vs. Kansas (neutral in November), vs. Louisville (Rupp), vs. Florida (Rupp). Best road win so far? Vanderbilt.
Syracuse’s best four wins – vs. Florida (home), vs. Marquette (home), vs. Georgetown (home), vs. Louisville (road). Best road win so far? Louisville.
If you cancel out the Florida game and Louisville games (though Syracuse had to go on the road), UK’s wins over UNC and Kansas are much more impressive than Syracuse beating Marquette and Georgetown. That being said, Kansas has improved dramatically since November. And neither Syracuse or Kentucky has done anything impressive on the road (blame the down year in the Big East and SEC). You can blame this game of circular logic all day. And then the committee will come back to those numbers above.
For the sake of argument, let’s bring the Ken Pom numbers into this. Ken Pom has Kentucky 2nd (Ohio State is 1st) and Syracuse is 6th. Very close. Toss in the fact that the Big East is better than the SEC this year, and I think you have to go with Syracuse as the top overall seed in the tournament.
Why does this matter? North Carolina, Duke, Ohio State, Michigan State, Missouri and Kansas are probably all battling for the last two No. 1 seeds and the No. 2 seeds. Missouri, which I’m still not sold on, will either get a No. 1 seed, or Kansas will. The other one is up in the air, but with the formulas loving the Big Ten this year, and the ACC being woeful, Ohio State wouldn’t be a bad guess. This would slide arguably the second most complete (roster wise, at least) team to the 2-line – North Carolina.
If the committee snakes the top eight seeds, this is what it could look like:
1. Syracuse 2. Michigan State (Big 10 runner-up)
1. Kentucky 2. Kansas (Big 12 runner-up)
1. Missouri 2. North Carolina (ACC runner-up)
1. Ohio State 2. Duke (ACC Champ)
Obviously there’s a lot of hoops left to be played, but which road looks tougher to you – Michigan State and Ohio State/Duke or Kansas and Missouri/UNC?
Previously: Has Baylor’s Perry Jones Played His Way Out of the NBA Draft’s Top 10?
Previously: NCAA Tournament: Projecting the March Madness Field

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111 Responses to “Shouldn’t Syracuse Be the No. 1 Overall NCAA Tournament Seed Over Kentucky?”
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February 14th, 2012 at 12:14 PM
Does it matter?
February 14th, 2012 at 12:15 PM
I could go either way, but I do think Syracuse has gamed the system when it comes to beefing up SOS. While Cuse plays enough crappy teams that also aren’t totally horrendous, other teams are at least playing games they can actually lose. That’s the difference. Cuse’s non-conference schedule routinely plays games that can’t really lose. When they go non-conference, most are on neutral sites (as opposed to OSU who’s played at Kansas and at Florida in recent years, Syracuse plays those games in Kansas City and in Tampa). Huge difference.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:16 PM
Raw review with video
February 14th, 2012 at 12:16 PM
No
February 14th, 2012 at 12:18 PM
Match-ups matter a lot in the tournament.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:18 PM
Especially for Cuse.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:19 PM
You know this guy CJ?
/assumes only 6 people have ever lived in Maine
February 14th, 2012 at 12:20 PM
INEMY
February 14th, 2012 at 12:20 PM
Holy shit does RPI suck. It manages to make the BCS formula look perfect. I like how you acknowledge how bad it is then base much of your argument on it. Please restructure this post using Kenpom.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:20 PM
Yes. I’m guessing most teams would like to see a team like Wisconsin in their side of bracket.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:21 PM
Saw some people post it on facebook, I have some college buddies who went to that high school. It’s a shame and I feel bad he lost his job for it. It’s not like he’s a perv. He’s not friends w/ any students on facebook, and only 1 parent was able to see it before he immediately deleted it when he realized his mistake. Just a sucky situation.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:21 PM
The year Duke won, I don’t think they should’ve even been a 1 seed and they ended up getting the easiest road.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:22 PM
which road looks tougher to you
What’s the percentage of 1 seeds that actually play the 2 seed?
February 14th, 2012 at 12:22 PM
The #1 overall seed means dick if the committee screws that team anyway. It happened last year.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:23 PM
12 comments in a seeding post to get someone bitching about Duke getting easy roads, I would’ve guessed twenty or more.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:24 PM
when was the last time either Duke or UNC was not a #1 seed?
February 14th, 2012 at 12:24 PM
1. Syracuse 2. Michigan State (Big 10 runner-up)
1. Kentucky 2. Kansas (Big 12 runner-up)
2. Missouri 2. North Carolina (ACC runner-up)
1. Ohio State 2. Duke (ACC Champ)
A lot of #2′s in there.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Happened to Kansas two years ago too.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
You know this guy CJ?
You know who else was from Bangor, Maine? Julie “The Cat” Gaffney
February 14th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Dick Vitale bitching on 3/12/12 about some 19 win mid major getting left out of the tournament > Speculating on 2/14/12 about who the #1 overall seed should be.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
LOL at Matt Barnaby tweet:
I’ll remember that after my next DUI brah.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:25 PM
Bracket creep! They’ll be twelve 2s by 2020.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:26 PM
Does it matter?
Yes, it does. But it is more of something to talk about than actually worry over.
2. Kansas (Big 12 runner-up)
That is so fucking false. I want to slap you, Jason. In no relevant universe will Mizzou win at Allen in two Saturdays.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:26 PM
There’ll*
February 14th, 2012 at 12:26 PM
The minute the tourney went to the pod system, the minute they decided the marginalize the regular season even more than they used to. I’m praying Ohio State gets sent out to Arizona this year. There’s nothing but shit out west to deal with.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:27 PM
The say they do that, but they don’t. Remember what they did in the East last year with OSU, UNC, Syracuse and Kentucky? While Duke was widely considered the weakest #1 seed and got paired up with San Diego State.
/not a Duke conspiracy comment
February 14th, 2012 at 12:27 PM
I’m praying Ohio State gets sent out to Arizona this year.
OSU will be in Pittsburgh — and I’ll be there
February 14th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
committee will reward Duke and punish OSU.
/narrative
February 14th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
Is Va Tech on the bubble again this year? Always fun when they get left out and it pisses him off
February 14th, 2012 at 12:28 PM
You know it, KingGrizz.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:29 PM
march blandness.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:30 PM
What does Lisk think about this?
February 14th, 2012 at 12:30 PM
that was cosmic justice.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:31 PM
No way in hell are they getting in short of winning the ACC tourney.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:31 PM
well put.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:32 PM
If Duke or UNC win the ACC tourney – they’ll be a #1.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:32 PM
Crazy how they have never met in the tourney.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:34 PM
I don’t like the pod system. Getting to play 85 miles down the road should be a reward. Now, they’ll put anybody next to the closest arena to guarantee butts in seats.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:34 PM
This is unfortunate.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:34 PM
holy random comment in post from october, wvdave902.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:35 PM
Further evidence why RPI is batshit crazy:
Cuse NCSOS: RPI-30 kenpom-202
February 14th, 2012 at 12:36 PM
They were gifted a championship. #3 seed in that region was Purdue right after Hummel got hurt. That entire region was a joke.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:36 PM
2003. Before that was 1996.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:36 PM
When you have a playoff system that no one cares about attending, you have to do something to drum up excitement.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:36 PM
Does any team have better wins than Duke this year?
February 14th, 2012 at 12:38 PM
Now, they’ll put anybody next to the closest arena to guarantee butts in seats.
There’s usually still a lot of empty seats for the early sessions too, unless there’s a team from a large nearby university (OSU, etc). I still don’t understand why they put those 3rd and 4th round games in huge domes… I hate basketball games in 1/4 filled 80000 seat football stadiums. Terrible sight lines if you’re going, and just kind of a lame atmosphere. Final Four I understand, but the Regional Finals… not so much.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:38 PM
Seal Team Six?
February 14th, 2012 at 12:38 PM
thanks, I wasn’t even asking that with an agenda, I was just curious. that is fucking crazy.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:39 PM
Nobody was ever gifted a Final Four more than Kansas last year. They could have made it without playing a top-eight seed. And they didn’t make it.
Gifts are what you make of them.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:39 PM
fantastic…you’ve had some real gems the past couple weeks.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:40 PM
And Baylor was #2. I guess I can understand giving Purdue a 3 seed that year, even w/ the injury if that’s the precedent. But not in Duke’s region
February 14th, 2012 at 12:41 PM
OT
More of a reason to drink Vodka.
/OT
February 14th, 2012 at 12:41 PM
Well you made me curious enough to do some actual research, which is no small feat.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:41 PM
If Missouri could make it to a top seed, they would probably draw Omaha and St. Louis as tourney sites. At least you would think–if they keep winning.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:41 PM
Purdue was 4. Baylor was 3. Nova was 2.
It’s a shame that Duke didn’t have the crippling matchup that Kansas had with Northern Iowa.
/boofuckinghoo
February 14th, 2012 at 12:42 PM
I’ve been to the first/second round games before and if I have the choice I would 100% rather be at a sportsbar or something with all the games on at once. zero atmosphere, and this was at an actual arena, not at a dome. they also don’t serve beer at the games either.
one positive, seeing the Texas cheerleaders in their chaps. just tremendous.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:42 PM
I remember them doing that with Cincinnati.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:43 PM
It’s a shame that Duke didn’t have the crippling matchup that Kansas had with Northern Iowa.
/boofuckinghoo
Didn’t that UNI coach sign a huge contract after that? He should send 30% of his paychecks to Bill Self.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:44 PM
Seal Team Six?
Spence, I keep hearing from some military buddies of mine that it was the Delta Force that carried out this operation, but that the DoD doesn’t wants to keep them low key. Thus Seal Team Six.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:44 PM
Purdue was not the three seed you jackoffs.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:44 PM
The Duke OSU road would be the toughest. Duke was barely hanging on to a #2 seed before their near miraculous win over UNC. Duke’s wins earlier were against teams (KU, MSU) that were not playing very well. They have been very vulnerable in a number of wins and hammered in a couple of losses.
If UNC is in a region as the #2 with Missouri – that would be a gift of at least a FF guarantee to UNC. They would arguably have an easier route – as a #2 – than any of the #1s!
The reality is, unless you have a truly dominant team that runs the table (Like the UCLA teams), every title team has had a good bit of luck – by not playing a bad matchup team. Matchups are a big factor in the tournament. Team A might lose a tough game to team B, who barely beat team C; but had team A played team C, they may have annihilated them. Just the way things work nearly every year.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:45 PM
Nobody was ever gifted a Final Four more than Kansas last year. They could have made it without playing a top-eight seed. And they didn’t make it.
Gifts are what you make of them. Breesus
Exactamundo. I’ve always believed seeding and nonsense like who is the overall #1 seed is talked about way too much. Just go in and win. Every game is the potential last game of the year.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:45 PM
Purchased championship. They should have just raised a banner with Uncle Pennypacker at that joke of an arena in Durham.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:45 PM
I’ve been to the first/second round games before and if I have the choice I would 100% rather be at a sportsbar or something with all the games on at once.
I’ve been to the 1st/2nd rounds in Indy and Milwaukee and the Regional Finals the one year they were in Madison with I think it was Kansas, Oregon, Illinois and I forget the other team. Aside from the time the Badgers played in Milwaukee, the atmosphere was bleh… the best part was hanging out downtown in Indy after the games. I remember a Pittsburgh/Central Florida game in Milwaukee… it was the last game of the night session (so like 930 tip maybe?) good god that was depressing.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:45 PM
Wouldn’t surprise me. The media attention after the kill always bothered me. Maybe bothered isn’t the right word, but it seemed out of place.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:46 PM
Remember when Duke had to play a terrible Wake team and then Cornell? Wait no that was Kentucky. And they still couldn’t even get out of that bracket.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:49 PM
Texas was the other team… I think.
It was probably 10 years ago.
/getting old. crap.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:49 PM
Oh yeah, I remember thinking Baylor should have gotten the 2 seed over Nova. Which I stand by.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:50 PM
OT/
Can we talk about this article:
February 14th, 2012 at 12:50 PM
#1 overall seed means nothing. There is no bonus for it. It’s just a CBS made up “conversation piece”.
As mentioned, it is all matchups. The bracket with OSU, UNC, Syracuse, and UK last year absolutely could have been the Final 4.
If I were a 1 seed, I would rather end up in the West Bracket. Play first two games near home, then head west to play St. Mary’s or Gonzaga or some other weak west coast squad.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:51 PM
This would be worth discussing if anyone had any faith the committee would seed sensibly.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:51 PM
And obviously West Virginia should’ve gotten the last 1 seed.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:51 PM
ooo natalie gulbis in body paint.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:52 PM
bad link in 73.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:52 PM
UNC would tap Mizzou by double figures
February 14th, 2012 at 12:52 PM
My only 1/2 round experience was in the Superdome about 15 years ago. There were probably 40,000 people at the Kansas/Kentucky game and 35,000 were there (myself included) to scream at Lester Earl after he sold out LSU and got them on probation. LSU fans pulling their hearts out for Kentucky–weird.
Funny thing was, the first game was actually outstanding. That was one of those games where Sczerbiak was unconscious.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:53 PM
No. 1 overall seed only because of what’s at the bottom of the post.
Geography could be a factor, but right now doesn’t appear to be. Missouri could mess that up, maybe Duke, but neither (right now) is unlikely, IMO.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:55 PM
No apologies necessary. I’ll forward you my PayPal account for cash instead.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:56 PM
WALLY! Yes, that’s the reason for my screen name…
February 14th, 2012 at 12:58 PM
Yeah we’re talking about the year Duke won, brain child.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:58 PM
the games I was at had the Texas team with Durant, Abrams, Augustine and Pittman, and the first game the place was a morgue. the second game they played Miami and there were more people there, but still an awful atmosphere.
February 14th, 2012 at 12:59 PM
duckworth on line 2. you must have missed the man-face discussion earlier.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:00 PM
I’ve erased that from my memory banks. That was terrible.
And, to be honest, we’ve skipped back and forth between both years in the conversation. But, should have known that Hummel was out all year last year.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:00 PM
What was that, a second round loss that year? My GOD that man can coach!
February 14th, 2012 at 1:01 PM
True, discussing Robbie Hummel and injuries could mean any year he’s been alive.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:05 PM
Let’s be fair, UCONN played in two of the worst three titles games ever and one of them was last year. The last two title games have been basketball abortions.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:08 PM
Also true. It’s the Butler syndrome. That was the least talent on the court for an NCAA Final since? My guess is sometime in the 1950′s. Early 60′s had OSU Havlicek and Lucas and UC with Oscar. Then the UCLA dynasty. And every final in the 80′s had awesome talent. Blech…
February 14th, 2012 at 1:11 PM
The 2004 final sucking was on Georgia Tech. UCONN played fine, after beating Duke of course.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:14 PM
Who gives a shit.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:17 PM
Give this man a prize! Syracuse has completely worked the system this year and gotten lucky that teams Marshall, Manhattan, GW, and Bucknell have had good years for them. There was no way Syracuse was losing those games at home, but now those wins look good. Please. What’s the difference between Cuse playing those teams and Kentucky playing Portland, Samford and Lamar? Apparently 40 spots in the SOS. What a joke. Kentucky is by far the overall number 1 seed. Just watch these two teams play.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:29 PM
Can’t wait to hear Robert Montgomery Knight break down the brackets this Spring.
/ jams more thumbtacks into palms
February 14th, 2012 at 1:33 PM
Oh yeah, I’m not blaming them.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:52 PM
Krzyzewksi is the master of this. Don’t schedule too many “loseable” games in the non-conf and avoid on-campus road games if at all possible, but make sure the sacrificial lamb teams aren’t so bad they kill your SOS. He knows how to use Duke’s stature as a team casual fans in big cities, particularly in the Northeast, will buy tickets to see.
February 14th, 2012 at 1:57 PM
I don’t know if I’d call it “gaming the system”.
With an 18-game schedule in that conference you can understand why you might think there is no incentive to schedule those November and December road games against heavyweights.
In the Big East you have always had many opportunities for resume building wins, home and road.
Syracuse doesn’t “game the system”, they just play in the right conference for that schedule to make sense.
February 14th, 2012 at 2:09 PM
Just asking. Where does St. Mary’s fit into this discussion?
/10 seed
//ok, NIT
February 14th, 2012 at 2:38 PM
Look, the RPI sucks, everyone takes that as a given. You know what else sucks? Using words like “much more impressive” when comparing four victories by two teams. How much more impressive? Why? After stating that beating UNC and Kansas was far more impressive than beating Marquette and Georgetown you go on to state that Kansas is a considerably better team now than they were when Kentucky beat them. I’m sorry, but 1) I’m not sure that beating Kansas and UNC is either more impressive or MUCH MORE impressive than beating Georgetown and Marquette. 2) It’s terrible to make no attempt to actually quantify how much more “impressive” a victory is when you are, in fact, attempting to make a rational statement MEASURINGsomething. Does anyone else see what’s wrong with this aspect of the argument?
February 14th, 2012 at 2:57 PM
@Whereswallace
I agree 100% that there is ostensibly zero difference between playing a team ranked 150 and a team ranked 250 to a top 10-15 team’s win probability. As such, you make a valid argument that the lower teams played on a top teams schedule should essentially be smoothed out in any statistical analysis.
That being said, and moving away from stats and simply into facts/mythbusting, I’d like to reference the quote you quote from @cursedcleveland: “Cuse’s non-conference schedule routinely plays games that can’t really lose. When they go non-conference, most are on neutral sites (as opposed to OSU who’s played at Kansas and at Florida in recent years, Syracuse plays those games in Kansas City and in Tampa). Huge difference.” I’d again like to measure the difference between a team from Central NY (again, not NYC, but 4 hours away from NYC. In fact, teams like Uconn, Rutgers, Villanova, and Seton Hall are all significantly closer to NYC than Syracuse. The time distance from Syracuse to NYC is comparable to that as from Boston to NYC. Would anyone argue that Boston teams enjoy a “home court advantage” by playing close to home in NYC?)
Anyway, would anyone like to make the honest argument that they believe that Syracuse didn’t play real road games when playing Florida in Tampa and Kansas in Kansas City? Here’s a list of teams that Syracuse has played away from the Carrier Dome out of conference since the 2008-2009 season:
NC State, Michigan State, Michigan, Georiga Tech, California, North Carolina, Florida (twice) Kansas, Memphis, Ohio State, Washington.
This is not to paint the picture that Syracuse has played a perfect schedule, but it is meant to illustrate that the fact that Syracuse doesn’t shy away from playing good teams. There seems to be a perception that all Syracuse does is play Marshall, Tulane, and Cornell but that perception is different from reality.
Perhaps my final point is that when we are attempting to quantify what teams have done, we often attempt to think about what they will do. That’s a natural reaction, but it is also wrong. In many aspects of analysis we are attempting to look at what may happen (the purchase of a stock for instance) as opposed to what has happened. Measurement, however, is much different from projection and in the case of seeding we are 100% beholden to what has happened as opposed to what we believe will happen. As such, it behooves us all to look at fact rather than myths and statistics rather than beliefs.
February 14th, 2012 at 3:11 PM
It’s not just the travel distance – which of those schools has the largest fan base in NYC. I’m guessing its close between Cuse and UConn. SHU and Nova are small private schools, and most of Nova’s fan base is in Philly. Rutgers has stunk for so long that i doubt they make much of a dent. SU has been marketing themselves as “New York’s College Team” for the exact purpose of giving themselves more access to MSG and more fans in the NYC area in general.
February 14th, 2012 at 3:18 PM
@vajayjay redick
I happen to agree with you, and living in the vicinity of NYC can attest to the fact that outside of Uconn, Syracuse has a larger fan base than the other schools mentioned. My general point is that there seems to be a general attempt to prove that Syracuse doesn’t play anyone, anywhere when in fact that is incorrect. For instance, how can a person argue that Syracuse plays less than neutral court games when they play at MSG, but when Syracuse plays Kansas at Kansas City or Florida in Tampa that they are playing a neutral court game? Surely if MSG poses any level of an advantage to Syracuse, then Tampa and Kansas City must pose at least similar advantages to Florida and Kansas?
February 14th, 2012 at 3:48 PM
Syracuse should care about having a 1 seed and ending up in the East bracket. Opening round games in Pittsburgh and then a sweet 16/ Elite 8 in Boston, should get them some big home court advantage.
February 14th, 2012 at 4:40 PM
Bowersm – I would be interested to know how many of Syracuse’s “neutral site” games are played at MSG vs somewhere else? You seem pretty knowledgeable about their schedule, do you know this? Maybe it just seems like they play the vast majority of their noncon games between NYC and SYR when really they are making trips like FLA and KC frequently.
February 14th, 2012 at 4:54 PM
Either way, as a Kentucky fan, I find it hard to argue too much with putting Cuse as the top seed. I think UK’s two best wins are considerably better (KU and UNC are stronger teams with better wins and their losses are easier to mitigate than MU and GU) but UK was beaten straight up on the road by a hot (at the time) team while Cuse lost on the road to a hot team without Cuse’s best interior presence. Point being, at full strength, Cuse hasn’t lost a game this season.
I think the S-Curve (snaking) is being utilized less and less each year thanks to the pod system. For this reason, as long as UK ends up in Louisville for rounds 2 and 3, I don’t care if they are first or second #1 seed because I don’t think that will ultimately affect who their #2 seed is as much as it might have in the past.
February 14th, 2012 at 5:11 PM
@TrinityPills
Not including BE Tournament Games, here are your answers:
2011-12: 2, Va Tech and Stanford
2010-11: 1, Michigan State
2009-10: 2, California and North Carolina
2008-09: 0 (Syracuse played “neutral” games in Kansas City this year against Florida and Kansas and on the road at Memphis)
2007-08: 2, Ohio State and Washington (Lost game to Ohio State)
2006-07: 1, Oklahoma State (Lost)
2005-06: 2, Texas Tech and Florida (lost to Florida)
2004-05: 1, Oklahoma State (Lost)
2003-04: 0
2002-03: 1, Memphis (Lost)
2001-02: 2, Michigan State and Wake Forest
So, the facts (as I have not disputed) are that Syracuse does generally play 1-2 games at MSG during the course of a basketball season (not including games against St. John’s and the BE Tourney). What’s perhaps more interesting, at least to me, is that the bias that is present against Syracuse playing games there (the home court advantage, the fact that they never leave the state of NY, etc) is a recent uprising that has trended moreso since Syracuse has more frequently won games there. In other words, there seems to be an attempt to de-legitimize Syracuse’s accomplishments by various outlets, bloggers, etc. Again, I’d prefer to look at facts and statistics and the facts are that Syracuse plays alot of good quality teams. Sometimes they play them at MSG. Sometimes they play them at the Carrier Dome. Sometimes they play them at other neutral sites. Sometimes they play them in their home arena. I will never say that Syracuse plays a perfect schedule, but I will defend them when bloggers, fans, etc. accuse them of playing a poor schedule.
One more fact that often goes under reported is that smaller teams generally have a greater monetary incentive to play at the Carrier Dome early in the season as Syracuse is a tremendous draw in terms of crowd. These smaller teams will often make more for that one game than they will for any other game the entire season and they do it on the road. Syracuse also has a monetary incentive to stay closer to home for the same reason. So my question here is this: How is wrong for both schools to reap the fiscal advantage inherent to playing at the Carrier Dome?
February 14th, 2012 at 5:15 PM
@TrinityPills
I find it IMPOSSIBLE to argue that either Kentucky or Syracuse shouldn’t be #1 seeds, even if every other team in the NCAA’s goes undefeated for the rest of the season and Kentucky and Syracuse both lose 2 more games apiece. That’s how far out in front they are of the pack.
I’m also not attempting to downplay Kentucky’s quality wins against Kansas or UNC, but I am attempting to put more light on the shoddy argument that they are simply significantly better than beating Marquette and Georgetown. Marquette and Georgetown are both quality teams with both players and coaches extremely familiar with Syracuse’s style of play. Neither of those teams are chopped liver and neither of those wins should be taken lightly (nor should Kentucky’s victories over UNC and Kansas).
February 14th, 2012 at 5:46 PM
Bowersm – Thanks for that. It looks like it took some work. Before I go farther, I am not sure if I am reading your line correctly so tell me if I am wrong. It looks like what you are saying is Cuse has played 17 noncon games away from the Carrier Dome in the last 11 seasons and that three of these games was not played in MSG (Kansas and Florida in Missouri and Memphis in Tennessee). Is that right?
February 14th, 2012 at 9:58 PM
@TrinityPills-
Not a problem. No, I only looked at MSG games and also included the additional games I had previously mentioned for added context. Here are the other BCS Level Non-Con games Syracuse has played away from the Dome, but not at MSG over the same time frame:
2011-12: @NC State
2010-11: In Atlantic City against Georgia Tech and Michigan
2009-10: Florida in Tampa. Second half of the home-away series with Memphis was played at the Carrier Dome
2008-09: @ Memphis, second half of home and away series with Virginia
2007-08: @ Virginia
2006-07: weird away game at Canisius, also played Wichita St. and Baylor at home at the Carrier Dome
2005-06: another weird away game at Towson state
2004-05: I missed two MSG games against Miss State and Florida. Played another weird away game at Drexel
2003-04: @ St. Bonaventure, @ Missouri, Michigan State came to the Carrier Dome
2002-03: Georgia Tech and Missouri both came to the dome, @ Michigan State
2001-02: @ Albany has repayment to New York State helping to fix te Carrier Dome roof, @ Georgia Tech, @ Tennessee, NC State came to the dome.
So, all in all 16 away games not at MSG and 19 away games at MSG over an 11 year span. That’s 35 games in all for average of 3.5 games a year away from the Dome, not counting conference scheduling. For the percentage breakdown that’s 46% of non-conference road games away from MSG and 54% of them at MSG.
Again, not perfect scheduling, but it does help Syracuse and really college basketball as a whole. It gets Syracuse and Michigan State playing quite a bit, for instance. It also gets Syracuse and Florida playing quite a bit as well.
February 14th, 2012 at 10:06 PM
And Kentucky hasn’t?
February 14th, 2012 at 11:17 PM
SU again leads the RPI and Power Rankings; RealTimeRPI.com Men’s College Basketball Rating Percentage Index (RPI) Ratings – A leading sports ratings and resources community on the Internet
The Orange have played, so far, 13 teams ranked 100 or worse, including 4 rated worse than 200; 1 team is ranked worse than 250; it is rated 291.
SU has played 9 top 50 teams. 4 of those are top 25 ranked. 2 are ranked 12 and 13.
Kentuc? Currently #3 behind Duke, UK has fluffed their schedule with 15 opponents ranked 100 or worse; 5 are rated worse than 200, with 4 of those worse than 250; 2 of these are rated 292 and 322.
UK has played 7 top 50 teams. 5 of those are top 25 rated. 3 are rated 5, 7, and 15.
Both teams have the she record. SU has played more quality teams. UK has played some teams rated higher than any SU opponent, and some teams lower ranked than any SU played.
There are 3 common opponents; St. Johns, Louisville, and Florida. Both SU and KU won each of their games against those teams. All 3 of those teams UK played at home. SU beat Florida at home, and St. Johns and Louisville on the road.
All in all, SU has played 14 teams with a realistic shot at beating them; UK has played 12.
Syracuse beat UL on the road, and demolished St. Johns on the road by a larger margin than UK could beat the Johnnies at home. Sure, UK beat Florida by 20, but the Florida UK beat was not as good as the one SU handled. And, one wonders if UK had to play the UL defense SU faced at UL, would they have escaped with a W?
So, I say, rank SU #1.
February 14th, 2012 at 11:26 PM
Why are some trying to ‘de-legitimize’ Syracuse? Plain and simple; Newhouse Envy. Those sports casters attacking Syracuse simply are trying to make up for small diplomas.
February 15th, 2012 at 11:44 AM
I just wanted to say this has been a great, civil discussion. Aside from people defending their “own” teams, no real mean-spirited bashing of others (except Duke, but that seems more with a wink).
I’m a Kentucky fan and while I think UK should be the #1 team, the rankings have more to do with the fact that Syracuse lost more recently, although I think they’ve been more vulnerable in late game situations. Either way, if Syracuse had lost in December and UK lost in February, the rankings might be reversed, although Syracuse was not in the pre-season #1 discussion–It was all UK and UNC, with the latter being given the edge. Syracuse had to fight its way to the top, UK was already there.
February 24th, 2012 at 10:03 PM
No, cuse should not be the overall #1 seed, at least not at this time. The premise of Cuse being #1 argument above is based on an RPI case that is based on SOS which is based on Rankings … RPI is self licking ice cream cone. If 63/65 AP voters and 31/31 ESPN voters think Kentucky is #1 then they are #1 and Syracuse is #2. RPI junkies shouldn’t have a problem with this because RPI is rooted in the rankings.