Bill Belichick’s Coaching Tree in New England: They’re Finding Out It’s Not Easy to Succeed Without Tom Brady
With Romeo Crennel’s recent promotion to interim head coach in Kansas City to replace ousted Todd Haley, and the chatter about Josh McDaniels as a possible replacement, it got me thinking: So, how are all those Bill Belichick disciples doing in the NFL? Belichick is widely viewed as the greatest football coaching mind of the last decade – even though I’m a Jets’ fan, and Belichick is as ornery as they come, I can’t deny his success – but all of his former assistants and coordinators who have left for head coaching jobs in the NFL have struggled.
Big-time.
Romeo Crennel: 24-40 in Cleveland. He’ll be 0-1 in Kansas City after Aaron Rodgers torches them this weekend.
Al Groh: 9-7 with the Jets for one season. Then, he left to coach at his alma mater, the University of Virginia. He has not returned to the NFL coaching ranks, nor is he expected to.
Josh McDaniels: 11-17. An epic disaster in Denver who was thought to have nuked the franchise … but it’s starting to look like he may have been onto something drafting Tim Tebow.
Eric Mangini: 33-48, with the Browns and Jets. He’s the only one of Belichick’s former coaches to reach the playoffs (0-1). He’s now working for ESPN where he’s apparently less prickly than he was as a head coach.
Nick Saban: 15-17. Famously flopped with the Dolphins and his exit was so ugly, I don’t see him returning to the NFL anytime soon.
Jim Schwartz: 16-29. Remember, he inherited a team that went 0-16 and needed work. He’s on track to get into the playoffs this year, and one could argue he has a better QB (in their prime) than any of Belichick’s other coaches had (Matt Stafford). I added “in their prime” in case some of you floated Favre while Mangini was with the Jets.
For those who are not mathematically inclined: a combined record of 108-158. One playoff appearance. I’m not going to go through and analyze every quarterback each of these coaches has had. I won’t go through and mock the GMs they’ve had, either. But I will note this: When Belichick first branched out from his master (Bill Parcells), he had a very rough go in Cleveland (36-44, 0-1 in the playoffs). He resigned.
I’d say the only upside here is for McDaniels and Schwartz. Why would Saban come back to the NFL? Groh is 67 and the defensive coordinator at Georgia Tech. Can’t see him returning to the NFL. Will Mangini go the Herman Edwards route – like ESPN so much that it’s more fun/easier than coming back to coaching? Crennel seems better suited as a coordinator.
McDaniels might fall into the KC job – the Chiefs have some talent and did make the playoffs in 2010 – which would be a lot more attractive if Kansas City can somehow land Matt Barkley in the draft.
[PS - As Jason Lisk notes, Rick Venturi was an assistant coach of Belichick's ... in Cleveland. He was the defensive coordinator in 1995, replacing Nick Saban. Venturi went on to be an interim head coach with the Saints in 1996 and went 1-7.]

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94 Responses to “Bill Belichick’s Coaching Tree in New England: They’re Finding Out It’s Not Easy to Succeed Without Tom Brady”
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December 16th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
Al Groh: 9-7 with the Jets for one season. Then, he left to coach at his alma mater, the University of Virginia. He has not returned to the NFL coaching ranks, nor is he expected to.
If GT ever relieves him of his DC duties Groh only needs a handful of years in the NFL to be eligible for his NFL pension. Gut tells me he pops up on some Belichick disciple’s tree just to get to cash in on that.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
i’ve been hearing rumblings that Crennel might go back to New England for the DC position next season.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:30 PM
“Coaching tree” is such a trite appellation. Don’t mean jack, if you don’t have players.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
/beats head on desk
December 16th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Where’d you hear that? I love Romeo
December 16th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
When did Schwartz work for the hoodie? in cleveland? I thought he was a Jeff Fisher disciple
December 16th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
any team that hires him as a head man is nuts.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:33 PM
wait, you mean not all great assistants are meant to be head coaches?
/Norv’d and Wade’d
December 16th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
There are quite a few defensive backs in this draft with character concerns I would expect Belichick to get a good haul.
/Janoris Jenkins, Cliff Harris
December 16th, 2011 at 1:35 PM
You are going to need to change this SEO-inspired title if you are going to include several of these coaches.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:37 PM
good coach. screwed by injuries to Pennington and fucking Favre. Remember, the Jets were playing extremely well prior to Favre getting hurt that season.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:37 PM
So was there a conclusion drawn above? Or were we supposed to draw our own?
December 16th, 2011 at 1:37 PM
This is ridiculous, as are most things you say about the Patriots. The Patriots were 11-5 without Brady. Clearly they are Belichick’s team, and have a head coach who somewhat micromanages/oversees everything. His disciples struggle without him, not without Brady.
/moron
December 16th, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Yes.
He is. It’s a bit of a stretch to even include him on this list.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:38 PM
?
December 16th, 2011 at 1:39 PM
I agree with WWoS assertion that Brady is a system QB.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:39 PM
Statement. Conclusion drawn. No supporting facts below. Seems about typical. Was the Tom Brady part just included for the sake of page views?
December 16th, 2011 at 1:39 PM
I agree. He seemed to be turning a corner in Cleveland last season
December 16th, 2011 at 1:40 PM
As a friggin’ Personnel Scout I may add…
December 16th, 2011 at 1:41 PM
People who say Brady would be nothing without Belichick or Belichick would be nothing without Brady are shortchanging them both. They do thrive together, no doubt.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:42 PM
yes, don’t coach the Cleveland Browns if you want to have success.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:42 PM
i’m back
/jordan
December 16th, 2011 at 1:43 PM
Well said.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:43 PM
EVERY QB is a system QB. Joe Montana is the most system-y of them all. If Brian Hoyer gets in the right situation (short passing offense, tactical hurry-up) he’ll be a top 15 QB in the next couple years. And I have no doubt that Ryan Mallet will be great in 3 years when they trade Brady. Unless you are as inaccurate as Sanchez/Tebow/Palko or as un-clutch as Romo/Sanchez, or have little field awareness like Gabbert/Sanchez, chances are you can be good in the right system with good players around you.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:43 PM
Jesus, look at the Bill Walsh Coaching tree.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:43 PM
Schwartz is a metal head. He’s cool by me but he needs to get his shit together.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:44 PM
Lisk would have done better research and organization when writing this topic
December 16th, 2011 at 1:44 PM
However, when going to college, success: Saban, Pat Hill, Ferentz, Groh.
Conclusion: None….like the article
December 16th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
Why is this so hard for TBL to see? Is he still hurt that his coach hates his QB?
/waits for “Leave the Sanchize Alone” video
//apparently i lose my shit over conclusions drawn without any support
///hates stupidity
December 16th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
Hogwash, they won three Super Bowls with Brady playing good to sometimes great. The past two seasons he’s played unbelievable and they haven’t won any playoff games. Helps to be a complete team, and playoff matchups tend to play a bigger role in winning a title than anyone is comfortable in admitting. Sports involve a lot of luck and good fortune. Stuff like that is a bitch on a narrative.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
This is such a tired argument. Everyone knows the only way for a coach to have sustained success is to have a great QB. Yes, without one you can have a winning season or two but thats about it.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:46 PM
Too bad there is no Jets coach in existence with a coaching tree
/probably wrong
December 16th, 2011 at 1:46 PM
In 2001 Patriots won the superbowl with Bledsoe starting 3 (4?) games and Brady the rest. In 2002 they had a full season of Brady and missed the playoffs (/fuck Favre)
/conclusion: Brady found it hard to succeed without Bledsoe
December 16th, 2011 at 1:47 PM
//Parcells doesnt count
December 16th, 2011 at 1:47 PM
A defensive backfield would be nice too.
/add to Christmas list
December 16th, 2011 at 1:50 PM
Eh, that Ravens playoff matchup was a “Murphy’s Law” game. The Colts had one against the Jets in 2001. Not much you can do about those, really. Niners had one against the Vikings in the 80′s where Montana threw perhaps the worst out route in history that went the other way. No player or team is perfect, even the best of them.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:50 PM
this post makes me want to run my car into a coaching tree
December 16th, 2011 at 1:50 PM
Shit … this is way too logical for this site. Stop it.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:52 PM
‘cept for the Dolphins.
/Nods at Mercury Morris
December 16th, 2011 at 1:52 PM
Not sure about the lack of a Jets coaching tree – there has to be a Kotite/Childress connection somewhere.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:53 PM
this is as dumb as the people that always point out that Parcells didn’t win without Belichick.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:55 PM
I didnt expect Barry Bonds to be sentenced today. I thought that crap was over and done with.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:56 PM
Let me try….
Weeb Ewbanks coached with Buddy Ryan on the late ’60′s Jets.
Buddy Ryan had Jeff Fisher working for him in Philadelphia in the 80′s/early 90′s.
Buddy Ryan coached with Rex and Rob Ryan on the early to mid-90′s Cardinals.
Rex Ryan is the current Jets head coach.
/all I got
December 16th, 2011 at 1:57 PM
/Simpson
//Homer Simpson
December 16th, 2011 at 1:57 PM
Romeo & Al Groh worked under Parcells before Belichick. So, who are they disciples of? Between Parcells and Belichick, obviously one is the false prophet and the other is Jesus.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:57 PM
It’s typical TBL. Wants to slam the Pats in some form or fashion. I’m surprised he didn’t throw the Patriots playoff victory “drought” of four seasons in there just for the heck of it.
I think this applies to the NFL more than any other major sport. Things have to go your way, the Pats hit the lottery of luck in 2001. They were darn good in 2003 and damn good in 2004 and it still took fortunate events to get the ringgggggggggs.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:58 PM
At a hair club for men, perhaps.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:58 PM
Its little brother. His team is pretty shitty historically and he has to bash the Patriots and Giants
December 16th, 2011 at 1:59 PM
How and why do people take McDaniels seriously? The guy was a train wreck in Denver and for the looks of things it appears that Sam Bradford has regressed under his guidance. Maybe people should give a little more credit to Tom Brady and a little less to mini-hoodie.
December 16th, 2011 at 1:59 PM
Eli Manning = Giants
Peyton Manning = Patriots
Cooper Manning = Jets
December 16th, 2011 at 2:01 PM
don’t you dare bring this into a TBL Tebow post.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:01 PM
McDaniels went off the reservation when he took the Denver job. BB wasn’t happy about it, just like when Mangini left but at least Mangina had some time to develop his coaching persona.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:01 PM
Once upon a time, Josh McDaniels was 6-0, defeated the vaunted Patriots and was the toast of the Mile High City. And then it all came crashing down. Now might be a good time to remember that, for history has a way of repeating itself.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:01 PM
I’m hoping he writes is bi-annual “Boston sports era of championships is over” soon because every time he does, another team wins a title.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:04 PM
“Coaching tree” is such a trite appellation. Don’t mean jack, if you don’t have players.
I was going to write a comment in which I called discussion of “coaching trees” to be “teh gay”. But your statement is much prettier and more mature. So I’ll just endorse it.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:04 PM
I’m really surprised TBL is not focusing on the Jets and what has become their patented late-season run. They could definitely lose another AFCCG this year again.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:06 PM
…To the Texans! TJ YATES! TJ YATES! TJ YATES!
December 16th, 2011 at 2:06 PM
Cleet – They beat a few bad teams. Going to lose to Philly this weekend.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:10 PM
Weis coached under Parcells first as well.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:11 PM
Wow, 57 comments on this post and no one brought up Major League Jerk.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:11 PM
ms, I am blown away at the various words we use to come to similar conclusions on topic.
In the McDaniels hiring in Denver, a lot of local people gave him credit for the “coaching tree” thing, but he didn’t have the same leadership skills nor the basic maturity to be head coach over guys his age (and IIRC, a couple of Broncos were older than ‘lil Josh).
That was the first time I really sat and thought about it: how much is it really worth for guys to be subordinates to a strong personality like Belichick?
We aren’t in the meeting rooms every day. We really don’t know how much leeway he gives his assistants, nor do we know how much active development Belichick instills in his subordinates. We assume osmosis, but until the McDaniels, Crennels, et al get (and sometimes fail at) jobs, it seems to be hard to anticipate the effect a “coaching tree” really has.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:11 PM
That’s what people were saying at the end of last year. Once they get in the playoffs, they are a tough match-up with Rex’s schemes. And I wouldn’t be certain of anything with Philly this year.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:12 PM
Parcells running the show, with Belichick, Crennel, and Coughlin on defensive side of the ball. Throw in LT and holy shit.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:14 PM
I thought Belichick was fine with this (maybe because he knew he wasn’t ready?)
December 16th, 2011 at 2:15 PM
Coughlin was the receivers coach. You would think he is a defensive guy because of his demeanor, but he has always been about the O.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:16 PM
In general I would think being under a coach like Fisher (more delegation, less micromanaging) would be better for your career than Belichick, because you learn to manage more, game plan more. There’s no way Belichick is giving enough responsibility to his underlings to really get them the experience they need. I’ve always been a little disappointed that for whatever reason (hubris, denial) Belichick refuses to train obvious successors. Though I do think McDaniels finds his way back to Foxboro somehow.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:17 PM
Ahh. Did not know that. They had always mentioned him as having coached with BB so I assumed it was defensively. I still remain impressed at that coaching staff though.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:18 PM
We aren’t in the meeting rooms every day. We really don’t know how much leeway he gives his assistants, nor do we know how much active development Belichick instills in his subordinates. We assume osmosis, but until the McDaniels, Crennels, et al get (and sometimes fail at) jobs, it seems to be hard to anticipate the effect a “coaching tree” really has.
I agree wholeheartedly. It also assumes that Belichick cares about imparting wisdom to his staff. This implies that there is a teacher-mentor relationship between them. That just seems silly on its face. NFL coaches are there to win games, not to foster relationships for the creation and cultivation of genius. Whoever thinks that that is the case has been watching Good Will Hunting too much.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:19 PM
Reverse jinx.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:20 PM
when you look at the Super Bowl 25, the Bills had the more talented roster. The Giants game plan was just better.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:20 PM
I think the best thing for your career is being a good coach and having a talent for it, not who you work under. There have been a good number of coaches people haven’t heard of that impress in the interview and get the job and succeed.
I hope not. Fuck him. And I doubt BB wants him back.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:21 PM
Not a lot of “players” coaches there. I am amazed at the rep that Parcells has for being an ass and the perception that players hate him, when guys like Terry Glenn (whom Parcells called a ‘she’) and Bryan Cox followed him at every stop.
Belichick is the same way…w as supposedly the third worst in the survey of coaches that NFL players would least like to play for, but it seems like there are always a lot of former players who talk him up, who love to play for him, and say great things even after they leave (a couple of the guys cut in preseason this year said stuff along that line, and Brady/Moss/Ocho have always said how much they like him).
December 16th, 2011 at 2:22 PM
ms, I hear ya and concur.
My beef with the concept is other guys in the future will get hired to HC positions in large part off this “coaching tree” stuff. Most times, they get hired by teams with losing records and a roster lacking talent.
No coaching tree can make up for that. It still takes time, effort and skill to get players and mold them into a winning team.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:22 PM
If you aren’t allowed to come up with gameplans, and lead/manage your players, that’s gotta hurt your ability to be a coach and really stunt your growth and preparation when you have a team of your own. Everyone knows it starts and stops at Belichick, and I wonder if maybe he’s a little too hands-on, and that hurts his coordinators when they leave him.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:25 PM
ms, I hear ya and concur.
My beef with the concept is other guys in the future will get hired to HC positions in large part off this “coaching tree” stuff. Most times, they get hired by teams with losing records and a roster lacking talent.
No coaching tree can make up for that. It still takes time, effort and skill to get players and mold them into a winning team.
But none of that is an easy to follow narrative that can be contained within two simple words like “coaching tree”. If we ask the media to dig deeper and talk about something more substantive, they may collectively shit their pants as if they had all heard the ‘brown note’ on a tuba at the exact same moment.
And we can’t have that.
/or can we?
December 16th, 2011 at 2:26 PM
These aren’t fragile lilies that need care and nuturing. Even if BB is dominating the gameplan, you learn as you work and develop ideas in your head of how you would run a team. Either you have the chops to make it as a head coach or you don’t.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:28 PM
I’m not sure if I fully agree, or that it matters. All I care is that Belichick leaves the team in good hands. After watching other teams with bad coaches the past years, with Reid/Smith/Fisher screwing up every timeout/challenge/scoring strategy, I don’t think I could handle having that happen to my team every week.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:28 PM
Either you have the chops to make it as a head coach or you don’t.
This would seem to obviate the importance of any sort of “coaching tree” then.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:29 PM
Even Terrence Malick thinks the idea of a “Coaching Tree” is overblown.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:31 PM
Once upon a time, Josh McDaniels was 6-0, defeated the vaunted Patriots and was the toast of the Mile High City. And then it all came crashing down. Now might be a good time to remember that, for history has a way of repeating itself.</em>
Does this mean you are going back to the pen?
December 16th, 2011 at 2:31 PM
…they may collectively shit their pants as if they had all heard the ‘brown note’ on a tuba at the exact same moment.
And we can’t have that.
/or can we?
Heeeeeeel, yeah!
cleet, you make a great point. They shouldn’t be fragile lilies. Boy, those ideas you develop work a lot better when you got guys who can consistently execute said ideas.
/looks at my Chargers
December 16th, 2011 at 2:34 PM
I could not possibly agree more. Sure, mentoring helps, but some guys just don’t have it.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:47 PM
I think some element of leadership is trained, not innate.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:50 PM
I think some element of leadership is trained, not innate.
Sure. Things like “you blow into the flat end of the whistle” and “X’s are our team and O’s are theirs”.
December 16th, 2011 at 2:58 PM
Have you ever managed people? Been a leader? A lot of leadership/management skills can be learned. Not everyone is a born leader, and I’m pretty sure that it’s not just the ones who are, who can be head coaches.
If you just look at X’s/O’s perspective though, you think that being told a gameplan vs. being forced to watch video, find tendencies, and figure one out yourself doesn’t make a big difference in how well you do? That’s like saying “you went to med school got good grades, go ahead and start treating patients”. You go through residency so you can acquire levels of independence, and practice critical skills on your own, with a modest amount of oversight, so then you are ready to take on situations yourself.
December 16th, 2011 at 3:00 PM
Observing /=/ doing. I have no idea how Belichick runs his offices and meetings, but I am fairly certain that if he did too much of the work himself, it would be a detriment to the future success of his assistants. It’s not just about rah rah-ing, you need to learn skills and develop the ability to evaluate tendencies and weaknesses of teams and how to exploit them.
December 16th, 2011 at 3:14 PM
WWoS, I apologize, I should have used sarcasm font in my comment. I was attempting, and failing apparently, to be facetious.
December 16th, 2011 at 3:21 PM
No worries, I uninstalled Adobe on my computer and I think it messed up the sarcasm font reader, so it could be my fault.
December 16th, 2011 at 3:26 PM
You want to find out who a leader is? Give someone some bling on their collar and tell them to take charge of a platoon when they get in the shit
December 16th, 2011 at 3:26 PM
insert: straight out of college
December 16th, 2011 at 3:38 PM
EVERY QB is a system QB. Joe Montana is the most system-y of them all. If Brian Hoyer gets in the right situation (short passing offense, tactical hurry-up) he’ll be a top 15 QB in the next couple years. And I have no doubt that Ryan Mallet will be great in 3 years when they trade Brady. Unless you are as inaccurate as Sanchez/Tebow/Palko or as un-clutch as Romo/Sanchez, or have little field awareness like Gabbert/Sanchez, chances are you can be good in the right system with good players around you.
I don’t think you criticized Sanchez enough here.
December 16th, 2011 at 4:00 PM
Typical revisionist history. The guy was great in college and extremely good after the Niners. Had he been healthy in KC, they could have gone on to great things.
December 16th, 2011 at 4:01 PM
/quote fail
/re: Montana
December 16th, 2011 at 4:21 PM
As a Chiefs fan, I want no part of McDaniels. While I don’t agree that all of Belichick’s success is due to Tom Brady, I do think he’s a huge part of that success. As much as it pains me to say this, Brady has to go down as one of the all time greats. Belichick’s designed a system that took advantage of Brady’s ability.
The fact remains, a lot of these guys got hired based largely on their association with BB and the Pats. Most of them, for various reasons, haven’t duplicated that success. Therefore, to hire someone simply because of that association is kinda stupid.