After Two and a Half Seasons, Mark Sanchez & Eli Manning Have Very, Very Similar Statistics
Mark Salfino crunched the numbers and found some startling similarities between New York Jets’ QB Mark Sanchez and New York Giants’ QB Eli Manning after 41 regular season starts. (The postseason, where Sanchez has played his best ball – 60% completions, 94 QB rating, 9 TDs, 3 INTs – isn’t included.) Here they are:
Eli Manning: 731-1337, 54% completions, 8,572 yards, 59 TDs, 46 INTs, 74.7 rating
Mark Sanchez: 667-1209, 55% completions, 8,068 yards, 43 TDs, 43 INTs, 72.9 rating
You can sit around and argue things like:
* Who had better weapons at receiver?
* Who had a better running game?
* Which QB played tougher competition?
* Eli was a 3-year starter at Ole Miss; Sanchez started for less than a year and a half at USC!
Overall, it’s quite clear: the stats aren’t that different.
Here’s where it gets interesting – after Manning’s second full season as the starter (2006), the Giants made a move, firing offensive coordinator John Hufnagel, and promoting QB coach Kevin Gilbride to offensive coordinator. In year two under Gilbride, Manning flourished, his stats spiked, and the Giants won a Super Bowl. (The Giants had a really nice 2007 draft on the offensive side: Steve Smith, Kevin Boss and Ahmad Bradshaw all helped Manning’s maturation.)
The only question now is whether the Jets will promote Bill Callahan to offensive coordinator after this season, or go out and get a guy who is available, like Todd Haley (still KC’s head coach) or Marty Mornhinweg (still Philly’s OC). [SNY Why Guys]
PS- The Football Outsiders want you to have patience with Sanchez! He hasn’t been that bad this year. Note: This was written before the Denver debacle.

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226 Responses to “After Two and a Half Seasons, Mark Sanchez & Eli Manning Have Very, Very Similar Statistics”
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November 21st, 2011 at 1:06 PM
This post.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:07 PM
Maybe everyone will pretend not to see this.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:09 PM
Did you know Tebow has better stats than Elway at this point in their careers?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:09 PM
Nice range, Jason.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:09 PM
“Overall, it’s quite clear: the stats aren’t that different.”
Whew. Glad we got that settled. And that proves…?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:11 PM
What’s Vince Young’s record?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:11 PM
Aaron Rodgers was upset over his worst performance of the season yesterday: 23/34, 299 yds, 3 TDs, 1 INT, 112 QB rating…why must we focus on the mediocrity in the league?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:12 PM
are you really comparing that dumb, 8-game comp (that Lisk ripped the other day) to 2.5 seasons?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:12 PM
TBL I think you need to move out of the tri-state area. The Jets’ fan little brother disorder may be breaking you.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:12 PM
yup, similar.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:12 PM
Kevin Smith is the second coming of Gale Sayers?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:13 PM
Both overrated because of the city they play in and their pedigree, too. Both have coaches that have never had consensual sex without money changing hands.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:13 PM
That if Patrick Turner catches a ball with his helmet Sanchez could win a Super Bowl
November 21st, 2011 at 1:14 PM
based on this (and how the NY Giants fans treated Eli Manning) it sounds like it’s just about time for Sanchez to start getting booed at home.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:14 PM
As an Eagles fan, I defended McNabb during the 2009 season, so I have empathy for someone trying to talk themselves into liking the failing QB on their favorite team.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:14 PM
I may be mistaken, but aren’t Giant fans always calling for Gilbride to be replaced?
Sanchez’s lack of accuracy would make hiring Mornhinweg a disaster.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:17 PM
16 TD passes aren’t “that” different?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:17 PM
Sanchez’s lack of accuracy would make hiring Mornhinweg a disaster.
so you’re saying sanchez isn’t the perfect quarterback for the west coast offense? Nice opinion, bud.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:18 PM
16 TD passes aren’t “that” different?
you’re racist against Mexicans, darrell. Obviously.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:18 PM
I think you need another very in the title
November 21st, 2011 at 1:19 PM
Why don’t you start with explaining the purpose of this post? You don’t come to any conclusion.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:19 PM
1 category out of how many?
125 more passes, too.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:19 PM
Was Elisha regressing in his 3rd year like Sanchez? You can tell Mark hates to get hit. He rarely takes the time to look beyond 10 yards down field, always checking to a RB/TE, even when he has time in the pocket. I believe this is called David Carr’s Happy Feet syndrome.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:19 PM
A stat that I would be interested in seeing:
Pick sixes against teams with inept offenses.
I only say this because we aren’t talking about Tebow on Friday if Sanchez doesn’t give away six points earlier in the 4th.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:19 PM
Vince Young: the original Tim Tebow
November 21st, 2011 at 1:20 PM
You mean the season the Eagles offense set the franchise record for points? Yeah, good comparison.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:20 PM
Extrapolation is dicks.
/Based on the weather today by Wednesday the temperature will be over 70 celcius!
//That’s 158 degrees in meth head yankee hick math
November 21st, 2011 at 1:20 PM
Charlie Batch was better than both of them.
/don’t know what it has to do with anything
November 21st, 2011 at 1:20 PM
I’m confused, do you want him to be compared to Eli? Is that good? Not according to what I saw last night.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:21 PM
Whittle it down to YPA, TD:INT, and completion percentage.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:21 PM
He rarely takes the time to look beyond 10 yards down field, always checking to a RB/TE, even when he has time in the pocket.
that’s because he only has two all pro offensive linemen, and only 4 out of 5 returning starters from what most people considered the league’s best O line.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:22 PM
actually, it was Gilbride’s first season as coordinator that they won the Super Bowl. Huffanagel was relieved of play-calling at the end of the 2006 season, and Coughlin called plays in a win in week 17 and their playoff loss to the iggles (jeff fucking garcia) then huffanagel was fired. Kevin Boss, Steve Smith and Bradshaw all got hot in the postseason along with Manning. he had a very up and down year.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:22 PM
McNabb was so good, they traded him within their division after a record setting year. What does that tell you?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:22 PM
I agree. Why focus on a mediocre quarterback who got bailed out no less than 10 times by his receivers because he failed to throw over the correct shoulder, underthrew the ball or panicked and got rid of the ball too quick.
The Rodgers myth was busted yesterday. Hasselbeck 2.0 confirmed.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:23 PM
Both have coaches that have never had consensual sex without money changing hands.
I just spit up water on my monitor.
/pictures Coughlin screaming at a “pro”
//spits up more water
November 21st, 2011 at 1:23 PM
yep. judge eli by all the drops by his receivers, porous oline play, and one bad int he threw. ignore the rest of his play in the game and the entire season for that matter.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:24 PM
McNabb sucking now is not evidence that he sucked in 2009 or any other year with the Eagles.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:24 PM
Eli is a good comp. Both are pretty inaccurate by NFL standards. Even completions are not always in the optimal place (i.e. lead a receiver). Both are wildly inconsistent, going on hot streaks with great play to cold streaks with baffling throws. Both get more credit than they should for their teams post season success. The difference is Eli is willing to stand in the pocket and throw it down field, while sanchez is not.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:25 PM
Breaking news: NFL players who have the same position but start for different teams have similar stats.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:25 PM
Seems like the Giants could have used you at DB last night with your defensiveness.
/leno’d
November 21st, 2011 at 1:26 PM
Babe Ruth only had 11 home runs total in his first FOUR years.
Ergo, Elvis Andrus will hit 700 homers.
/Logic
November 21st, 2011 at 1:26 PM
I expected Eli to have a great game since it wasn’t cold or windy last night. It’s really a shame they couldn’t pull it out the last two weeks, now they’re in rough shape and Eli’s worst is yet to come.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:26 PM
This was what I was thinking, too.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:27 PM
giants defense wasn’t the issue last night. regardless of the last drive.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:27 PM
To be fair to Eli for a moment (even if he doesn’t deserve that), he throws a nice deep ball. Mark Sanchez’s numbers on throws over 20 yards are really bad.
If the Jets can build on a good running game and start getting points from defense/special teams then Mark Sanchez is their guy. Honestly. If he can limit the turnovers then they could conceivably win with him. He doesn’t appear to be making progress in that regard though.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:28 PM
but if he played 16 post season games you’d see his stats regress to his regular season numbers.
god help us all if he gets 16 postseason games though…
November 21st, 2011 at 1:28 PM
i have a feeling he will be okay the rest of the way, because he wasn’t actually that bad last night. but they are going to lose a lot of games.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:28 PM
Sanchez is good for 2 or 3 “WHAT THE HELL WAS THAT???” plays every single game, whereas Eli only has about 1 or 2.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:29 PM
And does shifting the comparison from Matt Ryan to Eli Manning mean you’re souring on Sanchez, or is this an improvement?
Because either way, he sucks.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:30 PM
I don’t think the Giants D played particularly well. VY spent the first half looking awful, rusty. He played better as the game went along, but there were plenty of points there for the taking the Eagles left off the board.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:30 PM
The last two games of the year against the Cowboys that year would suggest otherwise.
That said, I only said that I defended McNabb in 2009 and was nervous about the trade. Obviously, defending him looks silly in hind sight, given what’s happened since. That was really all I was saying.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:30 PM
Shame Jeff George never broke his thumb for that comparison to work even better today
November 21st, 2011 at 1:31 PM
These posts are laughable. Anyway, can you come up with seven or eights QBs that you would definitely choose Sanchez over right now if you were starting a team? I can get to five:
Gabbert
Jackson
Painter
Ponder
Grossman
That’s it. That’s the list. Two of those guys are rookies, and one is playing because Manning is out for the season (I didn’t include guys like Skelton and Palko because their starters should be back soon).
Sanchez is a really bad QB.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:31 PM
The difference being the Eli wins his road conference championship games… Sanchez has a history of losing big games to go to the Superbowl.
/just as logical as TBL
November 21st, 2011 at 1:32 PM
This post reads like TBL is trying to convince himself that Sanchez can still be good more than anything. I mean, how long has he been denigrating Eli as being overrated and now he is using him as some sort of comparison on why there is a chance for Sanchito to become a above average QB.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:32 PM
+1 set of car keys tossed over the nearest receiver’s head
November 21st, 2011 at 1:33 PM
As soon as someone else puts together those Sanchez vs. Ryan stats, I’m sure you’ll see a comparison and perhaps a courtesy link.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:33 PM
Comparisons are cool for discussion, and I always love a good back-and-forth. But, after the comparison, there are so many things out of each quarterback’s control. The next level of consideration gets blunted, since the similarity in numbers doesn’t directly drive similar team results.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:33 PM
Ponder actually throws downfield and runs for 3 or 4 first downs a game. I’m taking him over Sanchez.
/homer
November 21st, 2011 at 1:33 PM
I was more surprised at how the Giants run game was bad last night.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:33 PM
Yeah, the Eagles moved on at the right time. No doubt.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:33 PM
I expected Eli to have a great game since it wasn’t cold or windy last night. It’s really a shame they couldn’t pull it out the last two weeks, now they’re in rough shape and Eli’s worst is yet to come.
I’ll add no running game, and their linebacking corps, reduced to a steaming pile of shit. Yup, it’s all Eli.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:33 PM
I remember that 90 degree night one January in Green Bay where Eli struggled.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:34 PM
keep polishing that turd tbl.
because eventually it will become, well, a turd.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:34 PM
People really have this conversation up in NY? I only ask because even as far away as DC nowbody really gives a shit about how either guy’s stats look.
There are so many different QB’s in the league with similar stats who get ignored because of where they play.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:35 PM
This site should be called “Making excuses to show Sanchez is not a bad Quaterback”
November 21st, 2011 at 1:36 PM
Eli is a top 10 QB. Sanchez isn’t. Last night be damned. Skewed numbers be double damned. Shit, even FO has me backed up on this.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:36 PM
I was more surprised at how the Giants run game was bad last night.
When your primary (only one after DJ Ware got knocked into the 5th dimension) back is Jacobs, yeah it can get bad.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:36 PM
Eh… he fell apart some once Peterson went down. TBL would never defend Sanchez on the basis of teammates’ injuries.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:37 PM
The biggest problem with Sanchez, other than his accuracy, decision-making, arm strength, intelligence, inability to read defenses, propensity for crippling turnovers, chronic flinching is….
November 21st, 2011 at 1:37 PM
After Two and a Half Absinthe Martini’s Lesley Visser & Erin Andrews Have Very, Very Similar Statistics.
/Very
November 21st, 2011 at 1:38 PM
He forced things, yeah. But I’d rather have someone try and make shit happen instead of playing scared. And yes, I’m going to be a massive Ponder apologist, just like I was for T-Jack (for about 6 weeks), Daunte and Brad Johnson.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Eli didn’t play bad last night. he did have one horrific throw. the giants had 4 or 5 killer drops that would have resulted in first down and big gains.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Does TBL keep doing this because
1) he truly has little enough knowledge of football to believe it
2) he formed an opinion years ago and will stubbornly stick to it despite mounting opposing evidence
3) $$$$
November 21st, 2011 at 1:38 PM
I like how he cherry picked the numbers to show their “similarity” then noted as one stat, the 16 TD difference.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Barely completed half his passes and no touchdowns. Superbly Dilfer-esque.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Kolb is hot garbage though…I would put Sanchez around #25.
/Well behind Palmer, that’s for sure.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:39 PM
Wasn’t saying it was all Eli by any means. Jake Ballard clearly got hammered Saturday night.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:39 PM
Absinthe Martini’s
Punctuation is dicks.
/Fantasizes about George’s desk bed
November 21st, 2011 at 1:39 PM
Agreed with the large majority here that Sanchez is a top 8 QB.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:40 PM
I’m going to be a massive Ponder apologist
You got room on there for me? Telling play for me was right after he threw that pick, he went and hit Shianco in stride perfectly. It was a thing of beauty.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:40 PM
B. Jacobs is a terrible football player. Everytime he touched the ball, the Eagles were happy.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:41 PM
Not a knock on the rookie Ponder, more just being silly about Sanchez excuses
Besides eventual graduation, and running a marathon, one of my goals for the next five years is to watch a number 85 for the Giants drop an important catch, and not want to repeatedly hit myself in the head with the remote.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:41 PM
This is how every fanbase starts the relationship with a young QB who shows a bit of promise. It’s young love. It’s beautiful. Good luck to you all.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:41 PM
I think the Sanchez folks will have to admit he sucks and will never get much better when Ponder and Dalton get mentions as being great young QB’s and Sanchez is still “needing some work”
November 21st, 2011 at 1:42 PM
How many other QB’s have made it to 2 National Football League Conference Championships!?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:42 PM
Noting him barely completing half his passes is more an indictment on the blind value placed on completion percentages than it is his performance in that game.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:42 PM
He only has a few tricks. Sanchez posts are the dead doves the fall out of his coat pocket.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:42 PM
the biggest difference in Eli and Sanchez’s first 3 years? is that Eli was wildly inconsistent. Eli showed flashes of brilliance, then throw 3 int’s off his backfoot with his lefthand. Sanchez is consistently mediocre. Eli is a solid top 10 QB. Can Sanchez get there? I don’t think so, because he hasn’t shown any real flashes that he can.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:42 PM
Kolb is hot garbage though…I would put Sanchez around #25.
He absolutely is. No. 25 is probably a good spot. Even with the accuracy issues, he’d be higher if his decision making was could improve to “terrible.” White people dropping n-bombs in West Baltimore make better choices around black guys than Sanchez.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:43 PM
You probably need to rematch that game, if that’s your opinion.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:43 PM
Does TBL keep doing this because
1) he truly has little enough knowledge of football to believe it
2) he formed an opinion years ago and will stubbornly stick to it despite mounting opposing evidence
3) $$$$
in part because he really, really wants to be a shit talker, but is burdened with NY Jets’ fanhood, making that impossible. And because QBs get all the publicity, so he needs his team to have a hotshot QB. But yeah, also because he’s pretty clueless, and quite stubborn about this particular lefty.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:44 PM
TBL’s list of criteria he uses to evaluate a QB
November 21st, 2011 at 1:45 PM
I think the Sanchez folks will have to admit he sucks
the list of people who haven’t yet made this admission is very, very, very small.
And most of them want you to be patient.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:45 PM
Al Harris not being able to cover a gimpy Plaxico will always haunt me…I’ve since talked myself into that game being for the best though since those Packers wouldn’t have stopped the Patriots, nowhere near the pass rush without having to resort to the blitz
November 21st, 2011 at 1:46 PM
OK he’s a future super bowl MVP, obvi..is that what you want us to say TBL? Or is this a “LEAVE MARK SANCHEZ ALONE! LEAVE HIM ALONE!” post?
November 21st, 2011 at 1:46 PM
/vomits
November 21st, 2011 at 1:47 PM
That was crisp. I actually hope they re-sign Shiancoe. Too bad our WRs our still dogshit (other than Harvin I guess, who’s not a #1 by any stretch)
It’s just nice to be able to do it again after Favre and McNabb.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:47 PM
Damn I was I had been here for the start of this thread.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:48 PM
even Rex has reached the point that he defends Sanchez only because he has to.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:48 PM
Damn I was I had been here for the start of this thread.
look on the bright side. If you’d been here for the start, you probably wouldn’t have been here for this finish, you whiny bitch.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:48 PM
Yeah, I will forever support the Giants after Super Bowl 42. Sweet jesus did I hate that 07 NE team.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:49 PM
Sanchito
Tell Sanchito that he knows what is good for him, he best go run and hide.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:49 PM
In the NFL or the world? Because I would put RGIII, Barkley and maybe Luck ahead of him right now.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:49 PM
Sanchez: Comp.% 55.2, TD rate of 3.6, INT rate of 3.6, Y/A: 6.7
QB #2: Comp. % 52.1, TD rate of 2.6, INT rate of 3.4, Y/A: 6.0
There you have it, folks. Sanchize is only slightly better than this shitty QB.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:49 PM
Eli was fine. He certainly didn’t play badly. I have a career’s worth of evidence to support the assertion that he gets worse as the weather gets cold and windy. If you want to point to a single game where he didn’t even throw a touchdown pass, his defense forced multiple turnovers, and he barely completed half his throws to counter my point about his career, fine.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:49 PM
Starters I’d take Sanchez over:
C. Mccoy
Cassel
Grossman/Beck
T-Jax
Gabbert
Guys who I am unsure for various reasons:
Kolb
Bradford
Henne
Ponder
Tebow
Everyone else, I would pick over Sanchez
November 21st, 2011 at 1:49 PM
WWOS: im sorry, I dont know what to do. Ive signed in and out a billion times, deleted my history and cookies and all that. I can see my new gravatar at the top of this page, but not on any of my comments. I’m stumped.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:50 PM
You just made Tarvaris Jackson cry.
The most telling part of TBL’s ignorance here is that QB rating is composed half of YPA and Comp%, and half of TD% and Int%
so TBL basically thinks this is how you evaluate a QB
1) YPA
2) Comp %
9) QB rating
11) ESPN’s new stat
17) TD %
18) Int %
/no wonder he thinks Sanchez is so good
November 21st, 2011 at 1:50 PM
I’m glad I’m not the only one that gets the feeling Rex can’t stand his quarterback. The “worst decision in football history” comment was a tad over the top even for a football coach.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:50 PM
even Rex has reached the point that he defends Sanchez only because he has to.
he can’t mask his hateful reactions during the games though, after the boneheaded timeout, the pick 6, and the fake spike.
That’s just straight up visceral hate. And Rex has a lot of viscera.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:51 PM
look on the bright side. If you’d been here for the start, you probably wouldn’t have been here for this finish, you whiny bitch.
Haha. Good point.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:51 PM
And Rex has a lot of viscera.
His wife uses her feet to help him release it.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:51 PM
Jets should sign VY next season.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:52 PM
+ 1 Purple Drank
November 21st, 2011 at 1:52 PM
That’s okay… a simple comment “New Hampshire > Maine”, followed by “Ty Conklin” is an acceptable alternative to gravatar bet.
All I really wanted was an excuse to say
/legend
November 21st, 2011 at 1:53 PM
Jets should sign VY next season.
he’s a better bet to run the west coast offense they’ll be using after they hire a guy who isn’t going to get fired.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:53 PM
You’d have to add Warner too.
/I’d start 50 year old Steve Young over Sanchez next week
November 21st, 2011 at 1:54 PM
And I just want to make this clear for everyone, Marty Mornhinweg is not getting fired. If Reid is fired, which I think is far from certain, Marty may be the next HC.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:56 PM
I got banned from a fantasy hockey league for trying to give up Khabibulin for Conklin when Fleury had his high ankle sprain. I hated those fuckers anyway.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:56 PM
yeesh…
TD’s are and if eli’s getting knocked for throwing more passes, he should be praised for throwing less INT’s per attempt.
and that doesn’t take into account eli throwing downfield a LOT more.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:57 PM
Pre-Denver game Aaron Schatz wants you to be patient with Sanchez. I’m sure the entire FO crew has range of opinion on Sanchez that runs from “not that terrible, could get better” to “just euthanize him on the field.”
November 21st, 2011 at 1:57 PM
Blech! I’d rather put up the stinky picture.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:58 PM
I can’t wait for Lisk’s post that sneakily takes a shit all over this one.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:58 PM
Everytime Brandon Jacobs runs East-West, it is like a victory for the defense.
November 21st, 2011 at 1:58 PM
[crickets]
/J-Mac
November 21st, 2011 at 1:58 PM
/collapses and dies
November 21st, 2011 at 1:59 PM
I come here for the posts… but I stay here for the same posts chopped up and put together in a different order the next day.
/not sure if that belongs in the BCS post or the Sanchez post
November 21st, 2011 at 1:59 PM
The headline will read something like: “Ranking the 25 best QBs in the league.” Sanchez will not be mentioned once.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:00 PM
VROOOOOOOOOOOOOM
November 21st, 2011 at 2:01 PM
I come here for the posts… but I stay here for the same posts chopped up and put together in a different order the next day.
And the comments which destroy said post(s).
November 21st, 2011 at 2:01 PM
Guess is that if Reid is fired (and I wouldn’t bet on it) it will be part of an FO coup that nets a HC that has less input on personnel. Marty would fit that mold, he’s a known commodity, the players know him and he runs a good offense. It may still be a disaster, obviously.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:02 PM
Verlander won the AL MVP.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:03 PM
good luck with that and pray you never have an OT game.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:04 PM
Pretty close result Verlander with 280, Ellsbury with 242, Bautista with 231 and Grandy with 215. Oh and whoever voted Michael Young first should get their voting privleges taken away.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:04 PM
I refuse to recognize any pitcher winning MVP until they go back and give Pedro the one that roided up Pudge won.
/again, he lost because a NY writer who voted for Rick Helling for MVP the year before, said he couldn’t vote for a pitcher.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:04 PM
Verlander won the AL MVP
Nice! Can’t wait for the Bautista fans to argue this one.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:05 PM
If Reid is fired, which I think is far from certain, Marty may be the next HC.
/collapses and dies
His head coaching can be summarized by 2 letters, OT. Some coaches like him and Wade Phillips make shitty HCs, but fairly decent OCs and DCs.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:05 PM
I don’t care who you are or how many games you started in college, that is not good.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:06 PM
I’m actually pretty okay with it… Ellsbury was huge all year, and without him (back to back walkoffs) that collapse would have started in August, but whatever. Without Verlander the Tigers were a joke most of the year.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:06 PM
Verlander won the AL MVP.
Really? A guy who played in 1/4th of his team’s games? Wow.
/Watching a Mike Hammer movie
//That character is the bad-azz
November 21st, 2011 at 2:06 PM
How? Didn’t Jacoby destroy him in WAR?
November 21st, 2011 at 2:07 PM
As opposed to Bautista, who only hit in 1/9th of his team’s at bats?
November 21st, 2011 at 2:08 PM
How? Didn’t Jacoby destroy him in WAR?
It felt like there were a few Bautista fans in here slurping EVERYTHING this guy did every other day in Yardwork
November 21st, 2011 at 2:08 PM
How? Didn’t Jacoby destroy him in WAR?
every time Bautista played a queen, Ellsbury turned over a king. Even when Ellsbury turned over a 4, Bautista flipped a 2.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:08 PM
Your “evidence” would have been better, though still minimally, supported by some measurement of the weather. Unless we are to assume that all of those games were played in 32 degree, windy conditions. I’m a Giants fan, so I recall it a little differently. Those late season performances have more to do with the injury status of his teams than him slipping.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:09 PM
As opposed to Bautista, who only hit in 1/9th of his team’s at bats?
they should have moved him up in the lineup, no?
November 21st, 2011 at 2:09 PM
every time Bautista played a queen, Ellsbury turned over a king. Even when Ellsbury turned over a 4, Bautista flipped a 2.
That is an awesome reference.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:09 PM
Because leading the AL in OBP, wOBA, OPS+, WAR (fangraphs version) and hitting the most HR is pretty deserving of the MVP.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:11 PM
Less than 1/9th, 10.5%
November 21st, 2011 at 2:11 PM
Because leading the AL in OBP, wOBA, OPS+, WAR (fangraphs version) and hitting the most HR is pretty deserving of the MVP.
There you are!
November 21st, 2011 at 2:13 PM
That’s essentially the same thing. Might as well throw wRC+ and all the other fancy hitting stats that say the same thing in there, as well.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:13 PM
Really? A guy who played in 1/4th of his team’s games? Wow.
As opposed to Bautista, who only hit in 1/9th of his team’s at bats?
Yeah, but Bautista did take the field on “defense”/could have helped his team that way on the days he didn’t hit home runs. The days Verlander didn’t start, he did….?
Even if Verlander went 32-0 with a 0.00 ERA, struck out every batter and had perfect WHIP/adjusted doo-hickeys and framistats, his team didn’t even win the pennant.
How valuable was he, really, when he didn’t contribute something to his team’s on-field effort 4 days out of every 5?
November 21st, 2011 at 2:13 PM
That’s basically one stat. And in the case of OPS/OPS+ it’s the exact same thing. (Just a ratio of a meaningless ratio, instead of just a meaningless ratio)
November 21st, 2011 at 2:14 PM
There you are!
he’s also the guy that thinks the Philadelphia Eagles need more receivers, first and foremost. Big giant ones.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:14 PM
The narrative won over the facts. If I were voting, it would have been Bautista-Ellsbury-Verlander. I mean, I’m not going to go on a rampage.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:14 PM
/points and laughs at Bautista
November 21st, 2011 at 2:14 PM
Regular season award = invalid point
Would you rather have four Verlanders having the season he did, or four Bautistas?
November 21st, 2011 at 2:15 PM
Kudos to Traderjack (who I don’t think has even been on today) for calling that two months ago.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:15 PM
I agree totally that Verlander was pretty dominant every fifth day. One of the best pitchers’ seasons in quite a while. But, what happened the other four days, when he didn’t take the field?
I would love to have a job like that – get tons of credit yet work a fraction of the time my co-workers do.
/As a USAF Reservist, I actually do similar
//Chuckles to myself
November 21st, 2011 at 2:16 PM
If you lead the league in homeruns, four base hits, and RBIing yourself, you should totally win the MVP.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:16 PM
Would you rather have four Verlanders having the season he did, or four Bautistas?
Depends on if I can bat that 4th Bautista in the DH spot. He would be kinda useless on an NL team.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:16 PM
His team wouldn’t have sniffed the playoffs if he didn’t have the year he had.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:17 PM
Would you rather have four Verlanders having the season he did, or four Bautistas?
One of each would be just fine for me.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:17 PM
he headed up the “marcus thames for MVP” campaign.
/waves at MLJ people
November 21st, 2011 at 2:18 PM
You can’t take the position that a pitcher should never win it. It comes down to money. How much would you pay for Verlander’s performance versus Bautista? Some years, a pitcher’s performance is going to be worth more than any other hitters.
Even the market would agree with that, with a pretty even split on pitchers/hitters getting $100+ million deals.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:18 PM
very, very, very disappointed I missed this post. are there any particular future meme worthy comments to make a point to read?
November 21st, 2011 at 2:18 PM
Thank you thank you.
I was at the dentist this morning getting fillings. BOOOOOOOOOOO
I also just got back from lowering the Bills casket into the ground at the football cemetary
/pours one out for JPQ
November 21st, 2011 at 2:18 PM
You want me to link to games that Eli played remarkably bad in where it was a bit cold or a bit windy or a bit both? Because I can. A good start is the most recent Giants playoff game, in Philly. Or the infamous playoff loss to the Panthers.
This was another personal favorite. Or that time he tried to lose to the Bills, but the team wouldn’t let him. Or that stomping the Vikings put on them at home when it was windy. I could find more if I really put some effort in.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:19 PM
They were a sub-.500 team who would have missed the playoffs
I don’t get it… 1/10th of fielding/hitting (60% of the game) = 6%
17% of pitching (250 of 1400 IP) (40% of the game) = 6.8%
November 21st, 2011 at 2:19 PM
Numbers may not be exact… but you get the point, I hope.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:19 PM
Oh come on now, that’s not needed. No need to go into your stat normalization and finding every damn thing wrong with the stats. At least I’m not trying to make up stats like Fox does.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:19 PM
Would you rather have four Verlanders having the season he did, or four Bautistas?
Since we were being realistic, regarding “regular season” distinction, I would rather have the “one Bautista” that may help me win more than the 32 games the “one Verlander” started.
I’m like PhillyMantis – not going on a rampage, not gonna go all “F*** YOU (winking at Sportsgal) about the choice. In interviews, Verlander seems like a cool guy. Throws gas, no doubt. And, yeah, Detroit would be in a hurting state without him starting every fifth day.
But, I have my opinion. It doesn’t agree with the writer/voters. Oh, well. God bless America.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:20 PM
Pedro Martinez 1999-2000
November 21st, 2011 at 2:20 PM
You want me to link to games that Eli played remarkably bad in where it was a bit cold or a bit windy or a bit both? Because I can. A good start is the most recent Giants playoff game, in Philly. Or the infamous playoff loss to the Panthers.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:21 PM
This was another personal favorite. Or that time he tried to lose to the Bills, but the team wouldn’t let him. Or that stomping the Vikings put on them at home when it was windy. I could find more if I really put some effort in.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:21 PM
Even more than you think, because pitchers contracts are lower long-term because of higher injury risk. If everyone got year-to-year contracts, pitchers would be even higher.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:21 PM
My main point of anger are the voters who gave Michael Young a first and second place vote. Apparently being a scrappy “leader” is worthy of being the MVP.
/barfs
November 21st, 2011 at 2:22 PM
Just teasing, but they really are all just one stat. (Though I much prefer wOBA, since it has at least a modicum of interpretability)
November 21st, 2011 at 2:22 PM
I’d be interested in finding out how many batters Verlander faced, and what % of the Tigers entire season that is, and comparing it to the ABs plus fielding plays made by Bautista (because he doesn’t get credit for all the half innings when nobody hits anything to RF).
November 21st, 2011 at 2:23 PM
I freely acknowledge that there has been precedent where a pitcher has had such a dominant season that it sets the tone for the entire team even on the days when he doesn’t pitch.
As a personal opinion, I would like to see that pitcher setting a tone for a team that at least wins his league’s pennant.
Once again, my personal view. I anticipate it isn’t in the by-laws/instructions issued to the voters.
Again, it won’t ruin my Thanksgiving or my corn flakes. The Chargers have already done that for me.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:23 PM
don’t mean to gloat, but suck it Curtis Granderson
November 21st, 2011 at 2:23 PM
Let him pitch… pitchers don’t matter anyway.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:24 PM
We can both agree on this point. wOBA is pretty good at determining performance in my book.
/fuck the Michael Young voters
November 21st, 2011 at 2:24 PM
WWoS, I follow your number-crunching and ciphering.
/numbers are our friends
//accounting degree in undergrad
///never worked a day as an accountant
November 21st, 2011 at 2:26 PM
I’d be interested in finding out how many batters Verlander faced, and what % of the Tigers entire season that is,
251 of 1440 IP. Batters faced doesn’t mean much, he faced a lot fewer batters.
I also wonder how much impact that 251 IP had on other starters/relievers. I’m sure Scherzer loved being able to get a win because the fresh bullpen took over the second he tired, rather than trying to squeeze out another inning because the pen was worn down and giving up a tying/losing run.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:26 PM
I can’t tell if this is supposed to be an insult or a compliment. Eli is an above average QB most years.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:26 PM
I would guess it is the same.
But if pitchers are higher (at least at the high end), I’d guess it is because you can have as many as 5 great starting pitchers.
You can’t have 2 great shortstops, etc. So that may decrease the pool of bidders for certain hitters.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:28 PM
Really? A guy who played in 1/4th of his team’s games? Wow.
Whoops. If he had 32 starts, it would have been 1/5th of his team’s games. I stand corrected.
/actually seated at this point
//guess I should’ve paid more attention in accounting classes
November 21st, 2011 at 2:29 PM
Don’t know who voted him 2nd, but the 1st place vote was a Dallas Morning News baseball columnist…He was able to see that leadership for all 162 games, though.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:29 PM
251 of 1440 is the quick and easy way, but if you’re going to compare it was % of plays that Bautista was involved in (AB+BB+HBP+ reached on error + fielding opps), then you should be comprehensive with Verlander.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:30 PM
He matched up against the other team’s ace and won more often than not. He was a streak stopper when he was needed to. He was dominant on a team that made the postseason and wouldn’t have without him.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:32 PM
Just a terrible sentence right here. I was too busy deleting and retyping to make any sense.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:34 PM
How about the old eye test. Stats are nice to make whatever case you want. Watch Eli, watch Sanchez. Eli has his brain farts, but he gives you those stretches of greatness. Sanchez does well with a lead or against prevent defenses.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:35 PM
Did Verlander even face his opponent’s #1 starter in a quarter of his starts? I’d be no.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:41 PM
How about just plate appearances and fielding chances? That’s all that’s needed. Your formula double counts some ABs.
/picking nits
November 21st, 2011 at 2:44 PM
The playoff loss against the Panthers could have been played in Miami, and the results would have been the same, he was confused. If I remember correctly, the most recent Eagles playoff loss was on a last second field goal, and he played well. I know there was a game they played late in the year against the Eagles where it was extraordinarily windy and he struggled. But that was a struggle for that game, not for every game ever played late in the years of his career.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:51 PM
guys, we’re talking about the first 40 games of their career. first 2.5 seasons. that’s it.
November 21st, 2011 at 2:52 PM
nope. just showing that they were comparable through 2.5 seasons. then one team switched OCs, and the QB thrived. jets will be switching OCs. curious if Sanchez thrives
November 21st, 2011 at 2:54 PM
But you can’t go by plate appearances against Verlander, can you… his job is to prevent plate appearance by creating outs. Should be more outs created vs outs prevents (Bautista).
November 21st, 2011 at 2:54 PM
Thrived doesn’t mean is still terrible
November 21st, 2011 at 2:54 PM
funny set of comments, ladies.
the post is nothing more than the headline: through 40 games, 2.5 seasons, very similar stats. i don’t know how/why that’s so difficult to grasp, but …
November 21st, 2011 at 2:55 PM
I owe you an apology when Sanchez wins the Superbowl next year.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:00 PM
I’m not talking about comparing the quality of the two players, there’s plenty of that already being done.
I’m interested in finding out exactly what the difference is between a pitcher and an everyday player in terms of % of a team’s season. You get arguments that a pitcher only contributes 1/5 of a season, but in that 20%, he participates in a far greater number of plays than any other player. I’d like to know what the final tally is.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:00 PM
But it’s not.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:01 PM
My point is that it’s variable (more so for a pitcher). If Verlander gave up more baserunners, had a higher ERA, but same number of outs, he’d be more valuable by % of plays involved in, but that can’t be true.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:04 PM
You can’t “just sayin’” us with the undertone of that you’ve been defending Sanchez and tried to find ways to defend/promote Sanchez for the last 3 months. It’s not a de novo argument… it’s data mining to find an example that supports the conclusion you already had in mind.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:06 PM
If I go ahead and compare Joe Flacco and Matt Ryan, and show that Flacco they are similar, that’s a “hey they have very very very very very similar stats” column. If I take Tom Brady and Peyton Manning, and try to show for the 100th time that Brady is better by adding, multiplying, dividing their stats until one is higher, that hardly makes a case.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:07 PM
*or just go through all the QB’s stats and find the most famous name whose stats aren’t too far off from my proband
November 21st, 2011 at 3:09 PM
He doesn’t play poorly every game by any means. But he does tend to play worse late in the season, particularly when it’s windy. He did play well against the Eagles in Philly — but that was 2007 (I screwed up by saying the most recent was in Philly, I was wrong, it was in NY). 23-11, Manning threw a particularly bad pick (and one other) that Asante returned to the 1.
I can’t explain why Eli seems more affected by the wind than other QBs. I haven’t read anyone who can. It’s not like he doesn’t have the arm strength.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:10 PM
Neyer has written a few articles about this. A starting pitcher that starts 32 games is about equal to an everyday player. A pitcher might pitch only 1 out of 5 games, but he’s something like 6x more responsible for the outcome of the game he pitched in.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:12 PM
Thank you, this was exactly what I was looking for.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:14 PM
/looks at 10 WWoS comments trying and failing to make that point
//oh well
November 21st, 2011 at 3:17 PM
November 21st, 2011 at 3:17 PM
Epic quote fail.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:21 PM
No, you kept bringing it back to value, which I wanted to leave out of the equation. I just wanted to know if the participation rates were roughly equal, before we started considering the value aspect.
Unless your point went over my head, which is entirely possible.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:23 PM
are we going to get a comparison after their first 56?
November 21st, 2011 at 3:24 PM
1. Eli’s stats were better. 2.Eli’s stats were about league average in ’04. Sanchez’s shittiness is not even close to average QB play in ’11.
Phil Simms had his struggles late in the year too. I doubt any QB who played home games in the old stadium would look good statistically. But it appears the new stadium is not as big a detriment.
November 21st, 2011 at 3:26 PM
/nods
//why giants need a running game
///they’re fucked
November 21st, 2011 at 3:40 PM
This is purely anecdotal on my part and I have not watched as many Eli games as a Giants fan has but it seems when Eli is inaccurate, he tends to miss high. The higher the ball, the more impact the wind can have on it, which may explain why the wind seems to hurt him more than other QBs. Also, Eli tends to throw down field more than most QBs which, again, tend to be throws more affected by wind.
/Awaits Giants fan to tell me I am wrong
November 21st, 2011 at 4:04 PM
I don’t think we really disagreed. I just think participation by a pitcher is difficult, because better pitchers participate less.
November 21st, 2011 at 4:06 PM
A pitcher who gives up three walks to load the bases participates more than the one who comes in after and gets the inning-ending double play, which is why I’m largely ignoring pure participation for a pitcher. Dunno what the right answer is.
November 21st, 2011 at 4:12 PM
This actually makes sense. Phil Simms was known for not being affected by windy days for the reason that he eventually was able to adjust his throws. This is also why McNabb, who is notorious for throwing low, was able to have success in the game at the Meadowlands where Eli struggled.
November 21st, 2011 at 4:16 PM
nope,that’s right. not as bad as he used to be. that was the knock on him coming out of Ole Miss. the giants needed those big targets when he was young. Burress 6-5, Toomer 6-3, and Shockey 6-4 with huge wing span.
November 21st, 2011 at 4:52 PM
Taking a shower with your dad > Mark Sanchez
November 22nd, 2011 at 1:50 PM
Why does anyone care about Mark Sanchez? He’s just an average QB. Period.