Q&A with Dave Zirin About His Book, The John Carlos Story
For a spell there in the late ’60s and early ’70s, when he broke or tied world records in distances from 60 yards to 200 meters, John Carlos might’ve been the fastest man in the world. As a teen he had outrun police while carrying 50 pounds of food on his shoulders (he fancied himself Robin Hood, stealing from boxcars to feed his poor neighbors). The Harlem of his youth was a cradle of social change — he knew Malcolm X up until his assassination, and was strongly influenced by a meeting with Martin Luther King Jr. — and by the time he made the U.S. Olympic team in 1968, he and fellow sprinter Tommie Smith had determined they would use the platform, literally, to describe how black Americans were treated. On the medal stand after the 200-meter dash, in which Smith won gold and Carlos won bronze, they wore black socks to symbolize poverty, beads to symbolize lynching and, held aloft in a display of what Carlos called “strength and unity,” single gloved fists.
“If you look at the pictures,” Carlos writes in his new memoir, The John Carlos Story: The Sports Moment That Changed the World, “Tommie’s fist and back are so straight it looks like he was drawn with a protractor. My arm is slightly bent. That was because I wanted to make sure in case someone rushed us, I could throw down a hammer punch to protect us. We had just received so many threats leading up to that point that I refused to be defenseless at the moment of truth.”
You can also see, in the Associated Press photo of that moment, Peter Norman, the Aussie who won silver that night, wearing a button to match the Americans’ that reads, “Olympic Project for Human Rights,” in solidarity with their cause. All three sprinters became pariahs. Smith and Carlos had, in the view of the Los Angeles Times, given a “Nazi-like Salute,” while the Chicago Tribune called it “an insult to their countrymen.” In a Chicago newspaper Brent Musburger wrote that “a pair of black-skinned storm troopers” had aired “dirty clothing before the entire world during a fun-and-games tournament.” Avery Brundage, the chair of the International Olympic Committee and one of the true shitheels of the mid-20th century (see: Nazi sympathizing at the 1936 Olympic games in Berlin, opposing women as Olympians), spread word that he had revoked Smith’s and Carlos’s medals (Carlos calls this a lie) and had them evicted from the Olympic Village.
After short stints playing for the Philadelphia Eagles and in the Canadian Football League, during which he shredded his knee on early-70s turf, Carlos went broke and got divorced. Since 1985 he has worked as a high school guidance counselor in Palm Springs, California. In 2005 San Jose State University honored him and Smith with a 20-foot-tall bronze statue of their pose on the medal stand. Strangers still occasionally greet Carlos with that iconic raised fist.
Dave Zirin, the author of the Edge of Sports column in the Nation, collaborated with Carlos on the book, due out Oct. 1 from Haymarket Books. I reached Zirin on his cell as he was loitering in an airport in Nebraska. We talked about John Carlos, regrettable Brent Musburger quotes and what he believes is a resurgence of politics in sport.
Sam Eifling: I remember seeing that photo of the medal stand in 10th-grade history, but I was amazed in the book at how much back story there was. How did you and John Carlos meet and decide to write this book?
Zirin: Like you, I saw that image at a young age and it stuck with me. It tattooed itself on my brain, just to see the drama of it. When I read about it in “The Revolt of the Black Athlete” and saw the documentary “Fists of Freedom,” I was absolutely blown away at how much was going on there. Like the fact the black gloves were bought by Tommie Smith just so he wouldn’t have to touch Avery Brundage when they shook hands, that they were wearing black socks and beads, and Peter Norman wearing a solidarity patch. There’s so much there in that moment.
I wanted to use the fact that I had a sports column to get in touch with them for the 35th anniversary in 2003. John Carlos had an old, unkempt web site. I call the number on the site and I hear, “Hello?”
We spoke and I found him to be unbelievably eloquent and honest, and frankly suffering. And at the same time having no regrets about having done it. We kept in contact, some of that was aided by the fact this article I did went viral online. We spoke on some panels together on sports and politics, sports and resistance. People in the audience were blown away at how eloquent this guy is.
When he asked me about doing a book I said hell yeah. I’m excited to go on the road with him and speak in front of audiences. He’s amazing.
Eifling: In the research for the book were there any facts that leapt out at you? Did you have any “oh-shit” moments in your reporting?
Zirin: I was gratified to learn that it was a window for me — his childhood, what it was like to grow up in Harlem in the 1960s and the window to the black experience, to me. John Carlos’ father was a World War I veteran — not World War II, as you would expect, but World War I. He was born in 1898. John Carlos is a generation removed from slavery, and Harlem was a burgeoning powerful culture of its own. This is something that speaks to a much larger story. It means you’re part of something much bigger than yourself. That to me was a serious oh-shit moment.
Eifling: It’s amazing to see how different the country was then. I can’t even imagine some of the media covering Smith and Carlos’ protest the way they did in 1968. That Brent Musburger line calling them “black-skinned storm troopers” blew me away. They were, what, 22 at the time? They were defenseless.
Zirin: I almost said that was my oh-shit moment as well. To me, an oh-shit moment was that John Carlos was still mad at Brent Musburger, and almost didn’t go to the ESPYs in 2008 because ESPN was employing Brent Musburger at that time. He believes with a lot of support that Brent Musburger built his career on that statement. So Brent Musburger gets riches and success and Carlos gets poverty and misery. Yet at the same time, people say you were on the right side of history and all that, and Carlos says, “I can’t eat the right side of history.”
Eifling: It seems like we’re a long way from Smith and Carlos and Muhammad Ali, but I was glad to see in the afterward that you think we’re returning in an era in which athletes use their platform for social causes. It’s a tough spot for them — almost by definition, professional athletes are young, and easy to dismiss. But now you have the Phoenix Suns wearing the “Los Suns” jerseys in the middle of the immigration battles and the Green Bay Packers coming out against anti-union action in Wisconsin.
Zirin: It’s not the 1960s, but it’s not the 1990s either. It’s function of social media, and athletes don’t live on Planet Jock anymore — war and poverty can touch their lives as well. Look at how many athletes were affected by Hurricane Katrina. I didn’t hear any actors or musicians come out against the national frat party atmosphere that followed Osama bin Laden’s assassination. But you did see Rashard Mendenhall and Chris Douglas-Roberts and Kevin Durant saying “I don’t celebrate when someone dies.” There’s media access that wasn’t available for them 15 years ago. We live in a world where there are Osama bin Ladens and there are trillion-dollar wars. There’s only so long you’re going to see athletes pretend they’re not a part of it.

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84 Responses to “Q&A with Dave Zirin About His Book, The John Carlos Story”
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September 21st, 2011 at 1:05 PM
Now THAT’s an iconic photo.
/didn’t read.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:07 PM
Brent Musburger wrote that “a pair of black-skinned storm troopers” had aired “dirty clothing before the entire world during a fun-and-games tournament.”
Wow. That doesn’t make me like Brent more than I used to. That cavalierly racist fellow must have lost money on the race.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:09 PM
Boo hoo.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:11 PM
Fantastic journalistic professionalism right there, Eifling.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:12 PM
But now you have the Phoenix Suns wearing the “Los Suns” jerseys in the middle of the immigration battles
Goddamn those jerseys piss me off. If you’re going to do a Hispanic Heritage game, do it properly.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:12 PM
That’s lazy writing. You make this guy sound like a homeless bum or a skateboarder.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:13 PM
I honestly really enjoyed this. Nice job.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:15 PM
Now with more racism!
September 21st, 2011 at 1:15 PM
You make this guy sound like a homeless bum or a skateboarder.
You’re saying he’s not? That was my second-favorite discovery in this thing. Brent Musberger built his career on being a part of systemic racism, and the guy being interviewed is acting out that terrible Tom Cruise movie. So Zirin’s life is based on a movie that was based on true events.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:15 PM
good get.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:15 PM
Now with more racism!
+this.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:19 PM
Random: why does it sound like Matt Ryan has a southern accent? He’s from Philly and went to BC. WTF?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:20 PM
A journalist making his career by saying some outrageous, indefensible shit? Well, I never!
September 21st, 2011 at 1:21 PM
The Dirty South is powerful, CJ. He probably picked up his new voice at Magic City
September 21st, 2011 at 1:22 PM
Or you could just put accent marks over random letters to demonstrate your diversity.
/ESPN’d
September 21st, 2011 at 1:22 PM
The sentence before begins “he believes”. He’s talking about from Carlos’ perspective, yeah?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:24 PM
So Zirin’s life is based on a movie that was based on true events.
Uh, no.
Zirin’s life is based on Communist principals.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:25 PM
Don’t know, but it is shameful. He went to Penn Charter after all. That is not West Philly High.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:25 PM
nice read.
i think the real question that’s being overlooked here is how on earth a white guy earned silver in the 200m?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:25 PM
Los Angeles Times “Nazi-like Salute,”
Well before the internet the LA Times was trolling for page views.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:25 PM
To be fair, I’ve lived in MD 9 months and apparently picked up something of an accent already. So I’ve been told.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:26 PM
thats raycesssssss!
September 21st, 2011 at 1:27 PM
Nazi’s find that offensive.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:28 PM
I think so, but like it also says, I’m sure he can back it up. The same way it isn’t hard to prove that Glenn Beck or Colin Cowherd did the same thing.
/Old buildings, prostitutes, and journalists–all become dignified with age
September 21st, 2011 at 1:28 PM
The Dirty South is powerful album, CJ.
/DBT’d.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:28 PM
Deceptive speed and a non-stop motor?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:29 PM
He was doped up more than a racehorse.
/olympics’d
//East Germany’d
September 21st, 2011 at 1:30 PM
“I can’t eat the right side of history.”
should have learned how to play a real sport
September 21st, 2011 at 1:30 PM
Hey now.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:30 PM
Deceptive speed and a non-stop motor?
Reminds me of Wes Welker, scrappy, team player, great heart, loves the game…
September 21st, 2011 at 1:31 PM
He’s got a high motor, hustles and is a smart athlete.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Zirin’s life is based on Communist principals.
Did he go to a communist high school or something?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Deceptive speed and a non-stop motor?
Well done.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:32 PM
Deceptive speed and a non-stop motor?
don’t all white guys have non-stop motors? it’s the only way to make up for being extremely fucking slow.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:32 PM
Speaking of Nazis, has anyone seen “Third Reich: The Rise & Fall” on The History Channel. Best documentary I’ve seen on that entire period of history. Fascinating.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:32 PM
So…Tim Dwight was black, right?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:33 PM
You serious? I didn’t think The History Channel showed real history shows anymore.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Speaking of Nazis, has anyone seen “Third Reich: The Rise & Fall” on The History Channel. Best documentary I’ve seen on that entire period of history. Fascinating.
Speaking of Nazis, has anyone seen “Dead Snow?”
September 21st, 2011 at 1:34 PM
I think I read a decent amount of the book back in high school for a research report. Fascinating and terrifying at the same time.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:34 PM
So…Tim Dwight was black, right?
Tim Dwight reminds me of White Michael Vick, world class speed, a coach on the field, injury prone, did not fight dogs
September 21st, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Speaking of documentaries, Man On Wire is really great.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Can’t blame ESPN for this one, Jay.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:35 PM
I’ve heard fantastic things about it. Is it on Netflix?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:36 PM
haven’t seen that. i’m on a mission to find “world at war” on blu-ray though. I’ll have to check this one out.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:36 PM
No, but on more than one occasion I was tempted to on Netflix. Any good?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:37 PM
I’ve heard fantastic things about it. Is it on Netflix?
Streaming
September 21st, 2011 at 1:37 PM
Speaking of Nazis, has anyone seen “Third Reich: The Rise & Fall” on The History Channel. Best documentary I’ve seen on that entire period of history. Fascinating.
@NDub…was this recently?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Speaking of Nazis, has anyone seen “Dead Snow?”
thank you for bringing this to my attention. this is right up my alley.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:39 PM
Thanks, pkiguy. That’s what I subscribe to.
I think it’s from last year. Just great, great stuff. So detailed. $12 at Amazon.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:40 PM
how the history channel has fallen… i still frequently watch it, but not with the same trust i did before.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:41 PM
You serious? I didn’t think The History Channel showed real history shows anymore.
It’s rare but they do. The Revolution and Engineering an Empire are great. The Dark Ages and Russia: Land of the Tsars is fantastic. I also like Battles B.C. or whatever it’s called. Richard Gabriel is an interesting guy.
/history nerd’d
//fuck ice road truckers
September 21st, 2011 at 1:41 PM
Very good, kinda showed that while after the war they were all saying “Hey, we didn’t want any part of this either” the videos showed a good amount of Germans were enjoying life under the Fuhrer
The bits about the Hitler Youth and all the attempts at breeding a master race with the girls coming back from the rallies pregnant were unnerving
September 21st, 2011 at 1:42 PM
Speaking of Nazis, has anyone seen “Dead Snow?”
No, but on more than one occasion I was tempted to on Netflix. Any good?
Not for everybody. I found it hilarious.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:42 PM
No. Seriously. I thought it was 12 hours of Swamp People and 12 hours of Ice Road Truckers.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:42 PM
Only if it involves Hitler. Didnt you know? That’s what the H stands for. Either Hitler shows or Nostradamus/Armageddon dominate that channel.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:43 PM
http://www.deadsnow.com for the trailer.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:43 PM
Ten and ten. The other four hours are broken down thusly: Ancient Aliens, paranormal, more aliens, WWII.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:43 PM
I thought it was History Channel I was watching last night with the Egypt marathon. That was pretty interesting, I thought. Except for the guy researching the history of the sphinx.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:43 PM
awkawrd work moment: boss comes by my desk while i’m cleaning white powder residue off my clothes; residue from pouring a pre-workout supplement drink, but i’m not sure he knows that.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:44 PM
the military channel has taken over most of the documentaries i think.
saw a great one about stray dogs in Iraq and Afghanistan who became mascots and then rescued and brought to the US to live with the a soldier.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:44 PM
Hitler shows or Nostradamus/Armageddon dominate that channel.
But the Nostradamus shows just talk about how he predicted Hitler, right? And maybe Osama
September 21st, 2011 at 1:45 PM
I like Modern Marvels, that incorporates how shit used to be done, that count as being actual history programming?
September 21st, 2011 at 1:45 PM
If I could travel back in time, I’d kill Nostradamus so society wouldn’t be subjected to the related cognitive dissonance and hindsight surrounding this asshole.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:46 PM
I like when I see commercials for shows on the History Channel about the future
September 21st, 2011 at 1:46 PM
impossible, Nostradamus would know you were coming.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:46 PM
history channel international > history channel
/useful information
September 21st, 2011 at 1:47 PM
ill gets it.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:48 PM
History Channel used to be known in my family as the Nazi Channel. Good times.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:48 PM
Not if I go back farther and kill his father before he’s born!
September 21st, 2011 at 1:49 PM
If I could travel back in time, I’d kill Nostradamus so society wouldn’t be subjected to the related cognitive dissonance and hindsight surrounding this asshole.
“man i wish i could go back in time. i’d take state.”
September 21st, 2011 at 1:50 PM
Ancient Aliens may be the worst, most intellectually asinine show on television. What a piece if uninformed shut that show is.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:51 PM
Shut=shit. Fuck you autocorrect.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:51 PM
I noticed this too and it made me LOL a little.
If you’re in a place for awhile, I think it’s easy to pick up affectations like that. My sister moved down South and she picked up an accent, so I suppose it’s not out of the question.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:52 PM
I was really behind this post until you went all auto-correct on me.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:52 PM
ill gets it..
late college years and right after college, i’d get all kinds of st*ned and watch the history international channel for hours. i learned so much over those few hours, but retained nothing so i’d just do it all over again the next day.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:53 PM
that’s a good point. it’s like Terminator, but real.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:53 PM
He wrote that “The serpent will rise in the East.” SEE? HE PREDICTED THIS!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!! CLEAR AS DAY!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
September 21st, 2011 at 1:54 PM
Oh, and this was a pretty good post, BTW.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:56 PM
Modern Marvels is tits mcgee.
September 21st, 2011 at 1:59 PM
Modern Marvels is tits mcgee.
nerd.
/points, laughs
September 21st, 2011 at 1:59 PM
My iPhone always changes “shit” to “shot.” It’s really annoying.
September 21st, 2011 at 2:03 PM
Only if it involves Hitler. Didnt you know? That’s what the H stands for. Either Hitler shows or Nostradamus/Armageddon dominate that channel.
Don’t forget the month leading up to every 9/11 anniversary, where they basically go shark-week with their 9/11 programming.
September 21st, 2011 at 2:06 PM
/doesn’t give a shit
//sets DVR for Friday at noon
September 21st, 2011 at 2:18 PM
Don’t forget the month leading up to every 9/11 anniversary, where they basically go shark-week with their 9/11 programming.
Never forget the 9/11 sharks