Nate Silver & Forbes: NBA is Not Under Financial Distress. NBA: Uh, Yes We Are
Interesting back-and-forth yesterday on the NBA lockout front: Statistical Genius Nate Silver wrote this lengthy blog post for the New York Times which essentially said that “the N.B.A.’s claims of financial hardship should be viewed more skeptically.” It took a few hours, but the NBA admonished Silver and shredded Forbes Magazine:
The information from Forbes that serves as the basis for this article is inaccurate and we do not know how they do their calculations. Forbes does not have the financial data for our teams and the magazine’s estimates do not reflect reality.
Silver, crunching numbers from Forbes and Financial World Magazines, wrote this sentence, which had to piss David Stern off: being an NBA owner is “fundamentally a healthy and profitable business.” Well, if you own one of the premiere franchises, it is. Writes Silver:
The other factor is the distribution of revenue from team to team: 17 of the 30 N.B.A. teams lost money in 2009-10, according to the Forbes data. Most of the losses were small, and the league was still profitable as a whole because of profits made by successful franchises like the New York Knicks, Chicago Bulls and Los Angeles Lakers, who together netted about $150 million by themselves. But there are a sizable number of owners who have reason to be unhappy.
This argument will boil down to the Forbes “estimates.” Where did they get them? What formula – if any – was used? If they’re wrong, by how much? Nobody’s optimistic about the NBA lockout, but it’s early, so doom and gloom will reign supreme. If you’re wondering what a post-lockout NBA might look like, Silver seems to think the NBA will soon look MLB – at least from a revenue sharing point of view.
In some ways, the N.B.A.’s present condition closely resembles that of Major League baseball before its 1994-95 strike. Baseball was still profitable as a whole in advance of the strike, but about one-third of its teams had lost money in 1993, according to Forbes, while just four teams accounted for almost half of all league profits.
The solution that baseball has since adopted — greater revenue sharing in lieu of a salary cap — could also be a natural one for the N.B.A.: the profits made by the Knicks, Bulls and Lakers alone would be enough to cover the losses of all 17 unprofitable teams. (Players might have some reason to object to revenue sharing — some versions of it are the economic equivalent of a tax on player salaries — but they would probably prefer it to the more draconian measures that the league will try to impose.)
I’m not a huge fan of revenue sharing in MLB – plenty of owners are gaming the system and pocketing profits while consistently putting an inferior product on the field. While there will almost always be a gap between the big spending owners and frugal penny-pinchers (happens in the NBA and NFL), the chasm in MLB is jarring: the Royals spend $36 million, the Yankees $202 million.
But here’s why revenue sharing might work in the NBA – unlike MLB and the NFL, one draft pick can turn the fortunes of a franchise (save for the occasional exception, like Peyton Manning). The drawback, of course, is if you get chosen 1st overall and you’re stuck in Siberia (Cleveland? Memphis? Toronto? Sacramento?) for half of your career. What if your inept front office can never attract the necessary free agents to build a contender? Or consistently bungles trades?
Worst-case scenario in revenue-sharing: You’ll have a handful of small-market NBA teams serving as a farm system for the future superstars, who eventually leave for the bigger markets. That’s often how MLB feels. Or is that already happening in the NBA (see LeBron, Carmelo Anthony, and maybe, Chris Paul)?

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233 Responses to “Nate Silver & Forbes: NBA is Not Under Financial Distress. NBA: Uh, Yes We Are”
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July 6th, 2011 at 12:29 PM
you can travel and shit too, you know…
July 6th, 2011 at 12:29 PM
they mean financially successful, right?
July 6th, 2011 at 12:30 PM
the chasm in MLB is jarring:
I like how the Janoff Advertisement post was removed from the front page and is not under recent posts.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:32 PM
But, everyone is happy as long as Yanks and Saaawx get the best players.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:33 PM
Not if you bought your franchise in the last 10 years.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:33 PM
JHS – do you think the NFL hard cap at all possible the NBA?
July 6th, 2011 at 12:35 PM
not JHS, but i don’t see why it isn’t.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:36 PM
The NFL fits 53? players under a cap of about 110 million? I think the NBA could manage to fit 13 guys under 50 or so million.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:36 PM
Looks at standings in MLB of winning teams…
(large = 90+ million, medium 50-90, small 50 and below)
Phillies, Atlanta, Mets, Washington…three large payrolls, one medium
St. Louis, Pitt, Milwaukeee…one large, one medium, one small
San Fran, Arizona…one large, one medium
Yankees, Red Sox, Rays…two large, one small
Cleveland, Detroit…one small, one large
Angels, Texas, Seattle…two large, one medium
Yup, gaming the system, I see lots of it there. Your MLB business knowledge is a joke.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:36 PM
I say that if you’re having to argue that your league is losing money hand over foot you can’t have that whole “Best Commissioner in Sports” moniker
July 6th, 2011 at 12:37 PM
The drawback, of course, is if you get chosen 1st overall and you’re stuck in Siberia (Cleveland? Memphis? Toronto? Sacramento?) for half of your career.
I’m convinced that TBL would prefer a 6 team league, with 2 teams located in NY, CHI, and LA. For the ratings. Duh.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:37 PM
This already happens in the NBA. Only 9 franchises have won titles in the last 30 years. MLB doesn’t feel this way because of the rampant parity.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:38 PM
Have to ask serious questions about how much of the losses are buying teams on leverage and defraying the purchase costs over multiple years. Multi-million-dollar industries cook their books to avoid paying taxes. Not surprising the NBA’s tax documents would show losses.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:38 PM
yes, if owners stop giving horrible contracts to guys like Joe Johnson and Gilbert Arenas.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:39 PM
LOL
July 6th, 2011 at 12:40 PM
I’m not a huge fan of revenue sharing in MLB – plenty of owners are gaming the system and pocketing profits while consistently putting an inferior product on the field
If by “plenty” you mean the Marlins (who just signed Josh Johnson and Hanley to big $ deals). And Maybe the Pirates. I don’t know of any other teams that have a small payroll whose owners are pocketing the profits.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:41 PM
Mantis – there are 75-80 games left. Can you at least see who gets in and who doesn’t? And have you looked at the last 5-10 years to see whether small, medium or large market teams make the postseason?
Hell, at the 8-game mark of the NFL season there is parity. Same with the 40-game mark of the NBA season.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:41 PM
news out of indians camp today was that the dolans gave the front office permission to look for ways to improve the roster.
just let that marinate for a second…
July 6th, 2011 at 12:42 PM
Rays made the world series in the past 5-10 years, Marlins won it in the past 5-10 years.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:42 PM
Thanks to this comment, I now desire pizza.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:42 PM
Only idiot media guys still pump that noise.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:43 PM
And have you looked at the last 5-10 years to see whether small, medium or large market teams make the postseason
Marlins, A’s, Twins, have all made decent post season runs in the past 10 years. Oh, and the TAMPA BAY FUCKING RAYS made the World Series 3 years ago.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:43 PM
the Royals spend $36 million, the Yankees $202 million.
The Royals spent more on draft picks and international signings than the Yankees the last couple of years, too. This data you’re using is even more half-cooked than Silver’s. Which, btw, the numbers Silver throws out there are pretty shitty for most of the NBA so it’s kind of dumb examination of his thesis. He’s probably right but I’d be willing to bet a lot of losses on team books are coming from sunk losses in the owners other businesses and the way Silver goes about it the losses are real.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:43 PM
By the 40 game mark of the NBA season, you can pretty much tell who is going to be in the playoffs, that’s the lamest excuse.
If we called it off after 82 in baseball, the Rays wouldn’t have won the AL East last year after crushing the Yanks and Red Sox in August. But we can’t harm the narrative! A team such as San Fran (around $80 mil payroll last year) wouldn’t have won the WS over Texas which was in bankruptcy, but traded Smoak for Cliff Lee to get to the WS. Yup, lots of things can change, but you can’t discard what small teams and smart front offices can do.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:43 PM
cle – 17, det – 11…i wouldn’t say either are large or small.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
El Oh El…I just can’t wrap my head around why you think there is competitive balance in the NBA when over the course of 30 years less than 10 teams have won the championship, what’s your criteria? You can’t say teams that make the postseason since they let in over half the league
July 6th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
And have you looked at the last 5-10 years to see whether small, medium or large market teams make the postseason
Also.. the Brewers made the playoffs 3 years ago, and recent shitty play withstanding, should make the playoffs again this year.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
Thanks to this comment, I now desire pizza.
You’ll be fat like the rest of us in no time
July 6th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
chins ahoy, fatty.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
I would say one is SMedium and the other is Extra Medium.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:45 PM
Equinox.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:45 PM
/Throws TBL a shovel
July 6th, 2011 at 12:45 PM
NBA’s new deal will look closer to the NHL’s than the NFL’s.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:46 PM
I agree with this statement. In short, this.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:47 PM
nice post on deadspin about NJ’s books and how they managed to show a loss.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:47 PM
the positives, yes. the negatives?
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_Major_League_Baseball_franchise_postseason_droughts
29 Washington Nationals 1981 NLCS (as the Montreal Expos)
25 Kansas City Royals 1985 World Series
18 Pittsburgh Pirates 1992 NLCS
17 Toronto Blue Jays 1993 World Series
13 Baltimore Orioles 1997 ALCS
July 6th, 2011 at 12:48 PM
I was using dollar amounts…Detroit might be 11, but they have a $90+ mil payroll. Whereas the Indians might be 17th, but they have a $65 mil. Bad contracts will do that for ya.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:48 PM
WHAT?!?!
/grabs chest
//has a heart attack
July 6th, 2011 at 12:49 PM
Define parity for me…
MLB has created a playoff formula which introduces artificial “parity” by playing 3 different 7 games series. In a league where winning 60% of the time is outstanding, losing 1 of 3 different 7 game series is not statistically abnormal.
However, the odds of getting into the playoffs are skewed towards those that have large payrolls.
To be fair, let’s not lump MLB and the disjointed regular and post- season setups in with the NBA, which obviously has massive budget discrepancy issues. I would not be surprised to see the NBA just lose a season so that they can get a new structure that the owners are satisfied with…
July 6th, 2011 at 12:51 PM
29 Washington Nationals 1981 NLCS (as the Montreal Expos)
25 Kansas City Royals 1985 World Series
18 Pittsburgh Pirates 1992 NLCS
17 Toronto Blue Jays 1993 World Series
13 Baltimore Orioles 1997 ALCS
The Nats, Royals and Buccos have ramped up their scouting departments (aside from the fact that Nats are trying to hand out money to every free agent that comes along and DC is by no measure a small market). The Jays are getting ready to go spending crazy and make a good bit in return. The O’s? Eh, fuck Peter Angelos.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:51 PM
29 Washington Nationals 1981 NLCS (as the Montreal Expos)
25 Kansas City Royals 1985 World Series
18 Pittsburgh Pirates 1992 NLCS
17 Toronto Blue Jays 1993 World Series
13 Baltimore Orioles 1997 ALCS
Are you honestly comparing last playoff appearances in a league where only 8 teams make the playoffs to a league where 16 teams make the playoffs? That’s laughable.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:52 PM
5 teams out of 30! Well holy fucksticks. Now, can you inform me how the Browns, Bills, Raiders, and Lions have done recently in the parity-filled NFL?
July 6th, 2011 at 12:52 PM
difficult to compare. what matters more to competitive balance in a league: winning the title, or making the playoffs? subjective.
plus, 16 teams make the NBA playoffs.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:52 PM
MLB: 8 teams make the postseason
NBA: 16 teams make the postseason.
How many NBA teams wouldn’t have sniffed the playoffs if not for this discrepancy?
July 6th, 2011 at 12:52 PM
They aren’t headed in that direction, but that said…why on Earth wouldn’t it be possible? There’d have to be some initial tinkering because of existing contracts, but it’s certainly possible for the NBA.
And is there really an argument being made that the NBA has more parity than MLB???????????????????
July 6th, 2011 at 12:52 PM
OK, that misses the point entirely of what you’re saying but those are the 5 outliers that you chose. You want to put the Grizzlies history before this season or the Bobcats history? Or the Bullets/Wizards? THe NBA has systemically failed teams aplenty, including the crown jewel of non-competitive franchises, the Clippers
July 6th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
getting owned in the first round by the Yankees every year is a decent post season run?
July 6th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
Cleet – if looking at teams that haven’t been to the postseason in the last decade (which is what that MLB list was), the NFL has 2:
Buffalo Bills 1999 AFC Wild Card Playoffs 11
Detroit Lions 1999 NFC Wild Card Playoffs 11
http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_NFL_franchise_post-season_droughts
July 6th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
I laughed. OL.
And the award for worst combined draft/free agency/trade moves in the offseason goes to… the Nashville Predators.
/no wonder Weber won’t re-sign
July 6th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
MLB only allows 4 teams in each league into the playoffs, while the NBA allows 8 and the NFL 6. OF COURSE more teams are going to have playoffs droughts.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
Which is pretty silly when you think about it, not really an accomplishment for 37-45 teams to make the tournament…MLB is good about keeping the riff-raff out
July 6th, 2011 at 12:54 PM
getting owned in the first round by the Yankees every year is a decent post season run
They’ve gotten out of the first round, haven’t they? Sure, they always lose to the Yankees, but they lost to them a few times in the ALCS, didn’t they? I though they beat the A’s in a series not too long ago.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
what’s your fax number?
July 6th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
6-0 in the AFC West last year!
/all I got
July 6th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
Until they change it of course.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
Absolutely. I’d put the odds of ANY NBA games in 2011-12 at no better than 50/50.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
The New York Mets and the Chicago Cubs spend in the top 5 of baseball nearly every year. Neither team has been consistently successful in the last decade. One of them has made the playoffs 6 times in the last 40 years.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:56 PM
As far as I can tell the argument can be summed up as “I like the NBA but not MLB so if I keep moving the focus of the discussion I’ll never have to admit being wrong”
July 6th, 2011 at 12:56 PM
Only for like the 500th time… unsuccessfully yet again.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:57 PM
Honestly, TBL, your NBA has more parity than MLB has to be one of the dumbest arguments you’ve tried to make.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
True, but how many lower seeded teams actually have a chance against the upper echelon teams?
I think your enthusiasm for last year’s playoffs is clouding your judgement.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
I’m usually one to defend Bud but this idea pisses me off, the only good that theoretically could come from it is that it could penalize the Wild Card winner by having to burn up its ace in Game 1 if they’re able to set up their rotation
Expanded playoffs cheapen the product
July 6th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
and even though they lose every year to the yankees, they still have a larger fanbase because of those playoff appearances than teams who make the playoffs every once in a while.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
Wally’s dead on here. And i would rather not see that in the NBA.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
“I like the NBA but not MLB so if I keep moving the focus of the discussion I’ll never have to admit being wrong”
How can a league with ratings like that have parity? It can’t. Consensus? NBA is the #2 league in America.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
i was actually trying to remember what he was arguing…i couldn’t figure it out.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
i don’t know. but i prefer winning the whole fucking thing.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
1994 they were locks to make the playoffs before the strike. Possibly even win the World Series.
Play in the only division that is truly affected year in and year out by the two constants in Major League Baseball.
July 6th, 2011 at 12:59 PM
hey! who put that strikethrough in there!?
July 6th, 2011 at 12:59 PM
I’m usually one to defend Bud but this idea pisses me off, the only good that theoretically could come from it is that it could penalize the Wild Card winner by having to burn up its ace in Game 1 if they’re able to set up their rotation
That and more shared revenue for the small market teams like the Nationals to game the system even more
July 6th, 2011 at 12:59 PM
Put me down for 2013 right after the SB.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:00 PM
1994 indians would’ve feasted on those french colonists like flies on the dead.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:00 PM
Huh? Bobcats made the playoffs last year. Wizards were in a few years ago with Arenas.
I’m certainly not saying the system is great, and yes, some teams sneak in because 16 teams make the playoffs.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:00 PM
Agree. I really hope this doesn’t happen. I will also defend Bud Selig most of the time.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:00 PM
It’s already happening, what league are you watching?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
some teams sneak in because 16 teams make the playoffs
Like the Bobcats and the Wizards.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
i bow to you, sir.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
what do you mean have a chance? Like a 8 over 1 or 7 over 2?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
MLB’s most pressing need is a salary floor, teams like the Yankees and Red Sox would relish a cap, keeps costs down
I don’t think this is as true as people want to believe but don’t care to research it
July 6th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
I would have greatly enjoyed that as the World Series.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:02 PM
Charlotte was 34 and fucking 48!!! Is that really something to cheer about?? THey were 14 games UNDER .500 and made the playoffs, come the fuck on.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:03 PM
And they actually missed the playoffs, Indiana was the 8th seed last year at 37-45.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:03 PM
I’ll wait for Garland or Geez to come in and compare the situation the the NBA is in right now to that of the NHL pre-lockout. They can do it better than I can, the parallels and lack of competitive balance is there.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:03 PM
Huh? Bobcats made the playoffs last year. Wizards were in a few years ago with Arenas
Charlotte was 34 and fucking 48!!! Is that really something to cheer about?? THey were 14 games UNDER .500 and made the playoffs, come the fuck on.
Can’t argue with irrationality my friend. TBL’s dead wrong. But you’ll never get him to admit it.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:03 PM
The Tribe weren’t winning the division that season much less the American League…Black Jack McDowell would have seen to that
July 6th, 2011 at 1:04 PM
1994 indians would’ve feasted on those french colonists like flies on the dead.
’94 Pedro Martinez was just starting out as a headhunter. That would have been a magical matchup between him and Joey at that point in their careers
July 6th, 2011 at 1:04 PM
I miss yuppie.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:05 PM
I’m sorry, it was Youppi. RIP.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:05 PM
I wasn’t looking at a specific number to try to shoehorn it into my argument. I was making the point that in the NFL, which has this aura of parity, there are teams that have struggled and not made the post-season for years at a time. Yes the 49ers made the postseason in the past decade, but look at their recent seasonal history and tell me they have not sucked.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:07 PM
nice revisionist history, meth sox fan…the tribe were a game back when the stike occurred and in the wild card lead by 2.5 games. and then there’s this…
/pours one out for competitive baseball here
July 6th, 2011 at 1:07 PM
Did I just get banned or something? Come on, this is a fair argument TBL, MLB may have issues, but is much more capitalistic and in better shape than the NBA.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:08 PM
Jake Taylor’d
July 6th, 2011 at 1:08 PM
Badger – wrong about what? All said was that the Bobcats did make the playoffs. Which is a fact. I never said they were good. They were swept, i believe.
and the MLB/NBA parity discussion is a fun one. You get a guy like Tim Duncan, you’re set for a decade. not the case in MLB. the sports are 2 different animals, so it is difficult to nail parity. are titles the only way to measure parity? can you use the playoff argument since so many teams make it in the NBA?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:08 PM
Playoff droughts in the NBA mean nothing. Now championship droughts…that is something an NBA fan can hang their
headhat on.July 6th, 2011 at 1:08 PM
and the MLB/NBA parity discussion is a fun one. You get a guy like Tim Duncan, you’re set for a decade. not the case in MLB.
Pujols?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:09 PM
/Cork’d
//I miss that old rivalry
July 6th, 2011 at 1:09 PM
The impact of 1 player out of 10 > The impact of 1 player out of 25
/you don’t see Roy Halladay going out an hitting 50 dingers or Albert Pujols blowing hitters away with a 92 mph cutter and a 81 mph change.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:09 PM
mantis – is revenue sharing capitalistic? how?
obviously it is in better shape than the NBA – the NBA is locked out right now! (but how would you define better shape? popularity? ratings? money? MLB definitely has one of those 3)
July 6th, 2011 at 1:10 PM
Badger – wrong about what?
Using the Bobcats making the playoffs as rationale for the NBA having more of a competitively balanced league. That’s wrong.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:11 PM
Didn’t Jason Bere get hurt right before the strike, too? He was a cog in that rotation. I think it was him, Blackjack, Wilson Alverez and Alex Fernandez.
That Tribe team was really good. I’m still saying the Expos were the team to beat though. Look at the roster. I had almost forgotten that’s where John Wetteland was before the Yankees.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:11 PM
I’ve made the argument that MLB is, in a lot of ways, more financially secure than the NFL, let alone the NBA, but I’ve been proven wrong because of ratings. Underlying issues like potentially massive lawsuits from your players past and present can’t fuck with the good people at Nielsen
July 6th, 2011 at 1:11 PM
How about applying the NBA format to the MLB and the MLB format to the NBA.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:11 PM
too bad the Yanks would have been the AL rep. They were starting to roll at the time of the strike.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:11 PM
/throws batteries at frank thomas
July 6th, 2011 at 1:11 PM
I still blame the strike for the Indians not winning the Series in ’95. They may not have won in 1994, but they would have had a chance to get their feet wet in the playoffs.
Of course, allowing Tom Glavine a 39″ wide strike zone in Game 6 kinda hurt tool.
/Fuck
July 6th, 2011 at 1:12 PM
cleet – just wondering where you were going with how long a team has sucked. 5 years? the last decade? i thought you were going to be consistent across sports (even though a diff # of teams make it in each sport), which is why i wrote that.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:12 PM
Having quite possibly the strongest union in the last 50 years of this country for organized labor.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:12 PM
actually, i think they were on a losing streak.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:12 PM
popularity and ratings are the same thing.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:13 PM
Weird because you’d think having the other two would lead to the third unless *gasp* this might not be entirely accurate
July 6th, 2011 at 1:13 PM
and jeff fassero can suck a dick.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:14 PM
who said that? when?
nice attempt at trying to put words in my mouth, clown
July 6th, 2011 at 1:14 PM
(but how would you define better shape? popularity? ratings? money? MLB definitely has one of those 3)
Money is the usual way you determine financial health. Capital and expected risk. Very high capital in MLB, very low risk (slow decay is a funny thing when your game does pretty well internationally and has kept a consistent base in a pure numbers sense – i.e., the aggregate number of fans hasn’t dwindled for MLB just the share of the national audience – the important word is slow rather than decay)
July 6th, 2011 at 1:14 PM
revenue sharing is actually a principal in supply chain management and a great one for increasing everyone’s profits if performed correctly. oh, and that’s capitalistic.
/not mantis
July 6th, 2011 at 1:16 PM
spencer – yes and no. yes and no.
MLB.com has much higher traffic than NBA.com. maybe 2-3x the amount of traffic.
but in the 18-49 ratings demo, the NBA Finals have beaten the World Series the last 2 years (at least).
popularity could probably be traced by region. Cleveland last year: NBA. this year? MLB.
Florida this year? NBA.
NY? MLB … over NFL (which makes talk radio awful in june/july/august)
July 6th, 2011 at 1:17 PM
nice attempt at trying to put words in my mouth, clown
take a walk, mr defensive. go hold the baby. You are not to ban Butters. And if you timeouted phillymantis, please undo it.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:17 PM
Let’s just take a step back here then, how can a league that’s more popular not make money? There’s a flaw in this logic somewhere…and easy with the personal attacks there chief, words hurt
July 6th, 2011 at 1:17 PM
/gives tbl a noogie
July 6th, 2011 at 1:18 PM
doesn’t the mlb.com traffic kinda negate the ratings difference?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:18 PM
I had something similar to this written, but IE & this website keep eating my comment. What the fuck…
Also a salary cap is decidedly an artifical barrier to creating maxmium wealth by imposing an mechanism that doesn’t allow the free market to work. If that isn’t the “S” word, I don’t know what is…
July 6th, 2011 at 1:19 PM
if anyone is curious, the NBA format in the MLB would have had these playoffs last year
AL: tampa, twins, Yankees, texas, boston, white sox, blue jays, tigers/a’s
NL: phillies, giants, reds, padres, cardinals, rockies, marlins, dodgers
two teams under .500 in the NL, but most of september would likely have been meaningless.
the NBA: East – Chicago, Miami, Boston, Orlando and West – San Antonio, LA, Dallas, OKC.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:20 PM
I think I was using the dreaded $ociali$t word….
July 6th, 2011 at 1:20 PM
doesn’t the mlb.com traffic kinda negate the ratings difference?
Ha! Only if people are using some kind of web interface to watch baseball games. I’d like to see that happen! Like, what, are they gonna charge a subsription fee that’s low enough to make the average fan feel it’s affordable and then rake in profits from this crazy online baseball watching experience? Keep dreamin’
July 6th, 2011 at 1:21 PM
If you need “long stretch without making the playoffs” defined than you can arbitrarily make it any number that works for your argument. The 49ers last made the playoffs in 2002. That is just short of a decade so it would eliminate them from the 10 year criteria. However, if you use common sense and have followed football you know that the 49ers have been shitty for awhile now and fall into the same category of the Bills and Lions. Same thing for the Browns and Raiders. Do you feel you have bested me by pointing this out?
You’re original point was that I contested was that there was a group of teams in MLB that had long post-season droughts and that eliminates the parity argument. You listed 5 of 30 teams. I then went to the sport which is often pointed to as the great league of parity, the NFL. I pointed out no less than 5 of 32 teams that were experiencing long playoff droughts in order to point out how invalid your argument was. You can sit there and say you win because some teams have gone 8 or 9 years without making the playoffs and I will sit here and say I win because of the point I made.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:21 PM
I think I was using the dreaded $ociali$t word….
that one’s a no go. You can say mexican at least. Watch. Mexican, Mexican, Mexican.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:22 PM
Sooo. who got banned?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:22 PM
NL West. The real Beast.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:22 PM
Um, they have something exactly like that, dumbass.
/literal
July 6th, 2011 at 1:23 PM
LOL.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:23 PM
“Damn these World Series ratings,” said Selig as he jumped into his pool of hundies procured from the the sales of MLB.tv.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:23 PM
Sure, a lower seed can get lucky in one round, but how many lower seeds do you ever see advance anywhere?
I think it’s going to be hilarious when the great David Stern gets a deal similar to what the NHL has and everyone will call him a genius, yet Gary Bettman will still be considered an incompetent fool.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
that woulda been some shitty 1st round games, too.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
How does the NFL maintain so much parity?I mean look at the playoff teams in the last 10 years and tell me that that this is not the best system. The fucking CARDINALS played in the Super Bowl just a few years ago. Forget the lockout for now and look at how Herr Goodell, Tagliabue, and Rozelle built up this league. Yes, Upshaw fucked up quite a bit and essentially gave away everything but the house to the owners. DeMarcus Smith is now trying to clean up his mess, and get a better deal for the players. You can’t say the league hasn’t done well.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:25 PM
fair point. won’t go there as long as you dont put words in my mouth
July 6th, 2011 at 1:25 PM
why is stern considered a genius to begin with again?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:25 PM
Sooo. who got banned?
maybe nobody, but we’re about to get asked again in a different thread who the most consistently angry commenter is, and TBL will want the answer to be Butters.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
You get a guy like Tim Duncan, you’re set for a decade. not the case in MLB.
Isn’t this kind of the point. Just because the cause of the lack of parity is more palatbale to your sensabilities doesn’t mena the league has mor parity.
Every league has factors which create parity and those which impede it. MLB has, in general, produced as much if not more parity than the NBA. Why are you so concerned with the inputs rather than the output?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
devang. NFL is a totally different beast. shorter season. every game matters. great for TV, especially at a time (winter) when most of the country is inside).
July 6th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
you’ve changed, man.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
Because Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Michael Jordan were really good at basketball.
It’s obvious, isn’t it?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
We’ve been over this, man. The NBA Finals are televised during MLB’s regular season and hockey. The World Series is televised during Fall television shows, regular season hockey, college football and the heart of the NFL season.
There’s more to compete with for the World Series.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
Let’s just take a step back here then, how can a league that’s more popular not make money?
because they give away so many of their regular season tickets, and people who watch on TV (for those ratings) don’t actually spend any money.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
Because he is scary. If I were a writer, I’d be afraid to call him anything else.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
it’s a lot easier to be shitty and fluke a couple games out of sixteen when the flukes get weeded over teh course of 82/162/whatever hockey has.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:27 PM
parity in the NFL only applies to the NFC.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:27 PM
nobody got banned, CJ. nobody has been banned in months.
i think it’s “cool” to now say, “DID I GET BANNED?” all random, for no reason.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:28 PM
I blame Bill Simmons. He likes to deep throat David Stern on his podcasts
July 6th, 2011 at 1:28 PM
well, the reason for it is to see if you’ve really been banned or not…i prefer the colloquial “test” instead.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:28 PM
Because he’s affable and will talk to the media or goshdarnit, he’s just so funny and short.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
i think it’s “cool” to now say, “DID I GET BANNED?” all random, for no reason.
free Taguchi, and while you’re in there, free sparty too.
Specifically, release their home IPs from the spam filter.
Thanks in advance for your attention to this matter.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
and jpq.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:30 PM
Except when they don’t.
/which is week 16&17 almost every year
July 6th, 2011 at 1:30 PM
Okay. I don’t think I have ever done that. I was just making a point, I’ll go back to my SBTB jokes now.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:30 PM
Just summed up Bears football this decade in one sentence
July 6th, 2011 at 1:30 PM
almost seems like there’s forced retirement here at TBL for the long running consistent commentators.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:30 PM
.
/ban test
July 6th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Is Jay the Most Hated still banned?
/nods at the old guard
July 6th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Because Larry Bird, Magic Johnson, and Michael Jordan were really good at basketball.
Oh, come on, let’s not go down this narrative path. He got lucky with the players but look at the marketing and salary cap innovations that he shepherded and he really did a great job once upon a time of moving the NBA into the position it has held to even make any semblance of an argument that it’s on par with MLB in popularity.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Except when they don’t.
/which is week 16&17 almost every year
all division games now, right? They addressed that one, I think.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Please? I don’t ask very often for a stay of execution or for people to be released from the gallows but this man has suffered long enough in exile. He made one poor joke (and it was a really bad one) but had years of quality contributions.
The others I don’t really care about.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:32 PM
Man I miss football talk. 1 week until the lockout ends.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:32 PM
almost seems like there’s forced retirement here at TBL for the long running consistent commentators.
taguchi wasn’t even very old. He burned so brightly though.
/stay gold, ponyboy
July 6th, 2011 at 1:32 PM
The fucking CARDINALS played in the Super Bowl just a few years ago.
Just to play devil’s advocate, the only reason this statement has any meaning is becuase they were one of a number of non-participaters in the NFL’s great “parity”
July 6th, 2011 at 1:32 PM
I don’t know that JPQ would come back under any conditions at this point. TST is a cause worth fighting for, though. He likes it here
July 6th, 2011 at 1:33 PM
that’s becuase it’s a flawed system. if only the BCS could be implemented in the NFL to determine who the best teams really are.
/puts foot through the hornet’s nest.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:33 PM
You need an additional sentence about special teams but otherwise, yeah.
I would have been gone with about 15 others a long time ago if that were the case.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Man I miss football talk.
this is a painful summer. At least I have Dirk.
Dirkules! Dirkules!
July 6th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
buncha posers tryin’ to get some street cred. nothing like earning it the old fashioned way, eh TBL?
/points to teardrops tattoo’d on face and the shiv I carved from my mouse pad
July 6th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Guys, I dont think jpq is banned. He got like a timeout one afternoon, but his exile is of his own doing.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
i stay around out of spite…i know TBL’s been trying to drive me out for awhile with the lebron-to-nyc, ohio hate, tiger and osu posts.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Haha SC, I was thinking the exact same thing.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:35 PM
What is there to talk about? Camps this month? Yippeee! Start worrying when 2 or 3 pre season games are cancelled.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:36 PM
Making an enterprise profitable could be done by able accountants and financiers. While new at the time, it doesn’t take a financial genius to know how valuable cost certainty (i.e.– a salary cap) is to a business venture. It was new to sports, but not new to the business world.
Stern’s “genius” is rooted in timing.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:36 PM
I miss trying to talk about football and learning more from you guys than I could from anywhere else. I felt like I knew what I was talking about like 40% of the time last year. That’s gotta be some kind of record!
July 6th, 2011 at 1:37 PM
Guys, I dont think jpq is banned. He got like a timeout one afternoon, but his exile is of his own doing.
nope, he’s banned. he lives in permanent moderation, so he can’t join the convo. It’s the essence of banning. He’s been muted.
If you get your account completely deleted, you can just sign back up. But if you get your IP listed as a spammer, and every comment has to be looked at before it is released, your voice goes away.
And that’s where these guys lived. (I briefly lived in there).
July 6th, 2011 at 1:37 PM
that doesn’t fit my narrative.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:37 PM
No, it’s because this website is unreliable. But you keep convincing yourself whatever it is that helps you sleep at night.
/on your mattress filled with low seven figures
July 6th, 2011 at 1:37 PM
it would be interesting to see what would happen if there are fewer injuries and better quality of play between teams if there are a reduced number of preseason games this year.
i am going to pencil in the packers for a 7-9 season if they don’t get any organized workouts together though.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:38 PM
so you’re the japanese guy in limbo eh?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:39 PM
Stern’s “genius” is rooted in timing.
Most genius is
July 6th, 2011 at 1:40 PM
I still can’t believe this happened. I mean, you were the MVP! I still remember the day where it was something like, “If any of you guys sent in links that were half as good as dirt’s like 10% of the time, we’d have a lot more to write about.”
That’s when I learned sending links was awesome. And how hockey became a fixture on this website. And that if I was ever bored, dirt probably had something good to talk about.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:40 PM
/on your mattress filled with low seven figures
Low seven figures is a very comfy sleep number
July 6th, 2011 at 1:41 PM
Actually, honest question for you guys and gals. How many of y’all ever sent TBL, Cousin Ron, Timmy, Lisk or Duffy a link?
July 6th, 2011 at 1:41 PM
Test.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:41 PM
speaking of genius. watched an episode on through the wormhole about the 4th dimension and i saw the first scientist on there that seemed to have trouble coherently explaining her theory. OT, but thought it was surprising.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:42 PM
never to lisk, hernia or duffy… blue moonish to TBL and CRM.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:42 PM
I mean non-lockout talk we’d normally be having. FA signings, training camps, fantasy football stuff, rookies/ coaches. Instead we are in a NFL holding pattern talking about whether there is more parity in MLB or NBA like it matters.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:42 PM
I’ve probably sent a dozen over the years, and a little less than half have been used.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:43 PM
You’re right. Oops
July 6th, 2011 at 1:44 PM
How many of y’all ever sent TBL, Cousin Ron, Timmy, Lisk or Duffy a link?
A few. I think one of them got used once. I used to send them to tips@thebiglead, I’ve sent a few to JMc since the tips thing doesn’t exist anymore (I think it got banned)
July 6th, 2011 at 1:44 PM
That’s not very nice.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
Nailed it.
I want to know if the Bears offensive line will improve more than just adding the Bear Jew.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
maybe the stuff is too complex for her to dumb down or maybe she’s just not good at explaining it.
similar, but not as “genius-y”…this guitarist joe pass is one of the giants in jazz guitar. would play bass lines and chords and melodies simultaneously and in an extremely complex fashion. i had a guitar teacher who took a lesson with him in the 70′s and pass couldn’t explain what he was doing or how he developed that style.
sometimes it’s just inherent and inexplainable but makes sense to the genius and those who can understand the subject.
and i think ive seen the doc you’re referring to too.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
Twice maybe, otherwise I say they should do their own bloggin’!
July 6th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
Same here.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:48 PM
Here’s a broad question we might be able to take a stab at. You guys think that if/when there’s a free agency period that it will result in guys being paid too much because it’ll be a shortened period, thus resulting in a mad scramble for FAs that would otherwise have been targeted later on?
The players that are UFAs have to be loving that as soon as the window to negotiate opens, there will be several suitors at their door.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:50 PM
yeah, it seemed to be that it was incredibly complex. I am amazed at how they can dumb down some of that stuff, like the Hawking Paradox show. fascinating and easy to understand.
good episode, but not my favorite. the 4th and beyond dimensions always seemed so far out there to me.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:51 PM
guys think that if/when there’s a free agency period that it will result in guys being paid too much because it’ll be a shortened period, thus resulting in a mad scramble for FAs that would otherwise have been targeted later on?
That and the assumed smaller amount for rookies should make the FA money go berzerk. Expect half the rookies to hold out, too
July 6th, 2011 at 1:52 PM
Heck, I’m been surprised at the lack of regular college football talk (non scandal related) Seems the lockout has just diffused a lot of people’s regular enthusiasm for football college or pro until the games either start or Lockout ends. Heck,it doesn’t even seem that long ago when TBL was complaining that “It’s not even Sept” yet
/old meme
July 6th, 2011 at 1:52 PM
SC: there will probably be a ton of FA since last year a lot of them were restricted because of the non cap (instead of 4 years to UFA, it was move to 6). I think with the shortened offseason, most FA will sign 1 year contracts with their current teams with only the cream of the crop getting paid handsomely, like Asomugha. But if a team loses out on him, they aren’t going to give Ike Taylor a ridiculous contract when they could have a R. Marshall or J. Wilson for much cheaper.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:53 PM
the Hawking Paradox show. fascinating and easy to understand.
But that’s Hawking’s calling card, too; being able to explain his theories in mostly common language
July 6th, 2011 at 1:53 PM
good point – at the same time, TV sweeps are in may for a reason – June is the summer, and people are on vacation, go to the beach, etc.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:54 PM
totally…love that shit tho.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:54 PM
THough, the proposed increase in the salary floor could lead to more spending, but i suspect it will mean guys will just get extensions on their current contracts that include pay bumps. For example Chris Johnson.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:55 PM
Unfortunately, yes.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:56 PM
good choice of morgan freeman to narrate, i’d listen to him read the dictionary.
makes it a bit easier… although classic bobcat goldwaith would have been incredibly entertaining.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:57 PM
July 6th, 2011 at 1:57 PM
well that was quote fail..sigh
July 6th, 2011 at 1:59 PM
I like the thoughts, Brawny. I just don’t want to see Jerry Angelo out there with a checkbook (not that the McCaskeys will let him) handing out stupid money to average players.
July 6th, 2011 at 1:59 PM
lol…that’s fuckin’ awesome.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:12 PM
I think Sidney Rice makes sense for them to be honest. He would push Knox back to the vertical threat and keep Hester in the slot. Martz knows how to maximize WR with his skill set. They probably won’t do it, but it would be a good investment for Cutler’s sake.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:15 PM
your wish is my …
ha.
no.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:26 PM
What do you have against Taguchi, TBL?
July 6th, 2011 at 2:29 PM
Not sure if this was an attempt at humor or just being a dick, but it came across as being a dick.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:30 PM
So TBL finally admitting that Taguchi is banned eh? Thats the first step..
July 6th, 2011 at 2:32 PM
I’m more concerned if it was an actual attempt at humor. The long time banning has pretty much proved the latter.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:34 PM
He’s being a dick and apparently on a power trip.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:34 PM
I get the feeling TBL banned Taguchi for changing his name to Shoshon the Elegant, the White Tiger King for awhile. Even after he changed it back, something was different.
/post hoc, ergo propter hoc.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:39 PM
It seems like stuff that would get you banned two years ago, wouldn’t now with the new business “arrangement”, but somehow the others can’t get unbanned.
/except Bulldog, who is toast no matter what
July 6th, 2011 at 2:43 PM
It seems like stuff that would get you banned two years ago, wouldn’t now with the new business “arrangement”, but somehow the others can’t get unbanned.
/except Bulldog, who is toast no matter what
It’s difficult to say I think. TBL misses a lot of things I think. Either that or he bans people based purely upon how he feels on a particular day. Because throughout the history of this blog, I can only thing of around 5 people that were truly asking for it.
Paolo, Bulldog, SuperAndy, Tarbaby, and maybe cool_rick. I don’t know if Jay_the_most_hated was ever banned or just stopped coming here. But if he was banned I think it’s safe to say he earned it too.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:49 PM
I’ve toed a few lines with criticisms, but 1) that right is given to me by the commentstitution and they are always fair, on point, and accurate. I’ve never made it personal, (as opposed to every Duffy article on OSU). But I will say this, I come here mostly for the commenters/community. If I got banned from commenting, I would no longer come here, except to rss feed Lisk’s articles during football season.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:50 PM
How does the NFL maintain so much parity?I mean look at the playoff teams in the last 10 years and tell me that that this is not the best system. The fucking CARDINALS played in the Super Bowl just a few years ago. Forget the lockout for now and look at how Herr Goodell, Tagliabue, and Rozelle built up this league. Yes, Upshaw fucked up quite a bit and essentially gave away everything but the house to the owners. DeMarcus Smith is now trying to clean up his mess, and get a better deal for the players. You can’t say the league hasn’t done well.
How can you say Upshaw gave everything but the house to the owners. The reason the owners are opting out is because they feel that they got a BAD deal in the last CBA.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:56 PM
Classic.
July 6th, 2011 at 2:59 PM
As far as the site goes, having your commenters revolt (which is slowly starting to happen here) is the wrong way to go…a lot of people (including me) who comment on here come mostly for the community of commenters we’ve established.
July 6th, 2011 at 3:06 PM
I think the Commentolution has actually fizzled of late. Maybe I’m in the wrong threads but most of the hostility towards JMc and even Duffy doesn’t seem as virulent lately. I think that’s mostly a function of not having a bunch of people get banned in very recent memory. The TST moditerod is just weird and nobody seems to understand how it’s lasted this long. Maybe TST needs to write some kind of formal apology or something. That’s pretty weird if it’s the case but, whatever, it’s JMc’s sandbox for the mostpart
July 6th, 2011 at 3:15 PM
The second most overrated Commissioner in the history of sports. His value (or lack of) was proven to me after the first two Jordan retirements.
July 6th, 2011 at 3:19 PM
LOL. When is your alarm clock set to go off? Please wake up and stop acting like anyone gives a fuck about hockey.
July 6th, 2011 at 3:23 PM
The second most overrated Commissioner in the history of sports.
Over-rated sure but he did do a really good job for the first decade or so he was on the job
July 6th, 2011 at 3:30 PM
But what does that prove? Jordan was only considered good because of Space Jam, remember?
July 6th, 2011 at 3:36 PM
ha, that’s about right. it’s cyclical, more than anything. i forgot about that college football fan who was banned about two months ago. he went into every post and tried to take a dump on it and there’s no need for that.
as i’ve said before – consider the comments section a dinner party. everyone is invited. if you show up and consistently act like a jackass, you’ll get the gate.
there are many dinner parties on the interwebs. go have fun at those. i still think in 5 years here, less than 10 people have been banned.
July 6th, 2011 at 3:50 PM
More often than not, most of us like those commenters and you just happen to have your own opinion about them. You can tell people like TST, JPQ and Sparty. Sometimes the host throws a crappy party and bans them.
July 6th, 2011 at 4:24 PM
It’s the TST banning that I don’t get it. jpq was sorta poking TBL with a stick by reposting the same off-color joke that TBL had just removed. Sparty also went several months in which it seemed like he was trying to get under TBL’s skin. Yes it was for a purpose, but he was clearly angling to irritate the boss man.
But I cannot for the life of me figure out what TST could have done.
July 6th, 2011 at 4:28 PM
Bring back Taguchi