Terrell Owens Not a Hall of Famer? I’d Like to Introduce Len Pasquarelli to a Concept Called Value over Baseline
With the news that Terrell Owens suffered a knee injury that required the 37-year-old to have surgery that may keep him out past September, the discussion has turned to Terrell Owens’ legacy and whether he belongs in the Hall of Fame if he retires. I’ll note that Owens did become a full-time starter for the first time in 1997 when Jerry Rice suffered a knee injury in the season opener, and Rice came back to continue to be the greatest of all-time. Whether Owens is done or not, I think we can have a discussion about his legacy, though, because he’s not likely to alter it.
Len Pasquarelli jumps into this breach with his column “Numbers Might Not Carry Owens to Hall.” His position has nothing to do with Owens’ personality, or the 2005 season in Philadelphia where he was suspended by the team for insubordination, or his tendency to wear thin on teams despite his productivity. No, it has to do with the numbers. From Pasquarelli:
It has become increasingly difficult for the 44 Hall of Fame selectors — a group that includes yours truly — to assess the statistics of wide receiver candidates. Reconciling the numbers that some feel are inflated by a game that has skewed dramatically toward the pass in recent seasons, is not only tough, but also a tricky balancing act.
. . .
It’s worth noting, though, that as the game has become more aerial in nature, the Hall of Fame fates of several solid candidates have been left, well, up in the air. As mentioned above, parsing the credentials of wide receiver finalists, divining the small differences, or even similarities, of the candidates has become daunting.
Pasquarelli is not the first Hall of Fame selector to say this, and this line of thinking irks me to no end. This isn’t advanced differential equations. Newsflash: all the seasons encompassing Terrell Owens’ career to date have been finalized, and the results of what happened were recorded. You can go back a decade ago to the 2001 season and find out exactly what Owens did and what other receivers did. In an instant, I can tell you he had 1412 yards, third most in the league, and that he led the league with 16 receiving touchdowns.
I can tell you that the 10th highest receiving yards that year were Troy Brown at 1199 (so Owens was +213 yards over 10th best) and the 31st most yards for a receiver, since there were 31 teams that year, was 868 yards. In a minute, I can compare that to 1975, when teams didn’t throw as much and when they played 14 games, and find that the 10th best yards in 1975 belonged to Reggie Rucker (770 yards) and the 26th best (for 26 teams) was 549 yards.
I can do that for any season. The numbers exist. They aren’t changing, and what happens in 2015 isn’t going to affect what we know about 1995. I don’t care what baseline you decide to use, value over 5th best, 10th best, X-best where X is the number of teams. They are there. Comparisons can and should be made, and there is no reason Hall of Fame selectors should act like they are in the Dark Ages.
Throwing up hands and keeping Cris Carter or Tim Brown or Terrell Owens or any other top receiver from the last two decades out of the Hall of Fame because you don’t think you can compare is lazy and unbefitting of a committee that should act in the best interest of the game. All of the information is out there. Use it.
Wide receiver is clearly the position where the Hall of Fame is clueless about what they are doing, so they just muddle it up and haven’t elected anyone other than the beyond obvious choice of Jerry Rice. If they looked at it and compared the era by looking at dominance or value over certain baselines, I’m sure they would conclude that even with the increase in passing, Terrell Owens is as dominant relative to his peers over his career as anyone this side of Hutson and Rice, and is in the conversation with receivers from other eras like Alworth and Largent, and his own contemporaries Harrison and Moss. (Oh, and Pasquarelli kind of played the Rings! card on Owens, but Alworth and Largent are easily in with similar numbers, not to mention Owens wasn’t a slouch in the postseason). Also, if passing has increased in importance and receivers have become more prominent, there’s an argument to be made that value has increased and there should be more passing into Canton from modern times, instead of the logjam that the selectors are creating.
The richest part of his column is the conclusion that shows equal parts an astonishing lack of self-awareness and preachy hubris:
Still, those who with Monday’s report will hurry to fill space with opinions about Owens’ Hall of Fame props — in the Age of the Lockout, when in doubt, run a poll or make a list, to gin up opinions and readers — should be wary.
[photo via Getty]

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216 Responses to “Terrell Owens Not a Hall of Famer? I’d Like to Introduce Len Pasquarelli to a Concept Called Value over Baseline”
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June 29th, 2011 at 12:35 PM
The game isn’t played on a computer, Lisk. It’s played on the field. Stats are just a way for 105 lb nerds to pretend like they understand a man’s game like football.
/burns down library
June 29th, 2011 at 12:36 PM
I like the Abstain choice, but I voted Yes solely because of that last paragraph you quoted. I can’t believe someone paid to write for a living came up with that.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:37 PM
first he defended Todd Stinkson, now this?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:37 PM
Abstain on account this poll was a cheap attempt to get page views during the lockout
Beats reading about NASCAR divorces.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:39 PM
If Lynn Swann and his non-HOF worthy stats can get in, TO will get in regardless of his antics
June 29th, 2011 at 12:40 PM
Good stuff, Lisk.
I don’t like to get worked up over HOF discussions in any sport, but the NFL HOF voters can be real obtuse and the WR discussion is a prime example.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:40 PM
Good post, Lisk. I am a big time TO hater, but he’s one of the best WR I’ve ever seen play. What he does and did on the field was nothing short of miraculous. He’s also one of the greatest physical specimens I’ve ever seen. There was an NFL Films where Sabol had a sculptor create a model of TO from the waist up. Dude was just a marvel when it came to physical gifts.
First ballot HOF. This is my favorite TO moment. Love the radio call too.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:41 PM
Also, how many times did it take for Art Monk to get into the Hall?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:41 PM
Great idea Len. It’s always more enjoyable to watch former players, who waited 25 years to get selected via the Seniors Committee route, give acceptance speeches with the late stages of brain trauma.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:41 PM
So, HOF receivers that aren’t in yet, going back to 1990? (not including TEs)
Definites: TO, Moss, Harrison, Carter
Maybe: Reed, Bruce, Ward (RRRIIINNNGGS!!!), Rod Smith,
Probably not: Holt, Jimmy Smith
Definitely not: McCardell, Meshawn, Muhammad, Galloway
This is also where I stick up for my boy Gary Clark who should be in.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:41 PM
Len Pasquarelli, a good Western PA boy, probably had no issue with Swann’s induction.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:42 PM
I voted yes. This article deserves the cheap page views. I would love to see Pasquarelli respond with an impassioned and enlightened explanation of sliding baselines as it pertains to WRs in the modern era. I will vote in his little poll, too.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:42 PM
That was the last year I was a 49ers fan. oh the memories.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:42 PM
but then again what’s more likely, a QB and good offense elevating the stats of a WR or 1 WR elevating the offense and QB?
those WR’s who can elevate an offense by themselves deserve to be in the HOF, those who benefit from a passing system and above average QB aren’t in the HOF.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:43 PM
Joey Galloway should not be mentioned in any HOF discussion, ever..
June 29th, 2011 at 12:43 PM
Marvin Harrison shot a guy!
/allegedly
June 29th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
That was the last year I was a 49ers fan. oh the memories.
Fell off the bandwagon??
June 29th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
pig sooie!
June 29th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
len P was an idiot long before this.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
/facepalm
//because you’re right
June 29th, 2011 at 12:44 PM
I hate HOF discussions, but, I’m lost on anyone who says T.O. isn’t anything but a lock.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:45 PM
what about the spencer’s favorite cooper-era buckeyes HOF?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:45 PM
I just read an ESPN piece where they were ranking the best arm, best qb in clutch, best leader and so forth and number 9 made my eyes roll to the back of my head.
9. Best interview: Hines Ward
June 29th, 2011 at 12:45 PM
I don’t know his stats, merely his notoriety, but will 85 be up for HoF discussion when his career is over? Probably just a “very good” guy, eh?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:45 PM
That was the last year I was a 49ers fan. oh the memories.
Yeah, that was the last time they made the playoffs, isn’t it? Don’t worry, you’ll find your fandom again in the next couple of years
June 29th, 2011 at 12:46 PM
TO should be a lock to go to the hall of fame, and there are still lots of people here who take his side over the Eagles back in 2005. A lot.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:46 PM
ever wonder what TO would have been as a receiver if he didn’t have his strange personalities and antics?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:46 PM
no.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:46 PM
I was a fan of the 49ers since I was 5. I started to not like football as much so I just divorced myself from the team and haven’t truly rooted for any team since then. I lived in Bills country for so long that I watch their games most of the time, enjoy talking about them, but don’t consider myself a real fan of the Bills. I do enjoy listening to the overreaction and woe is me by every Bills fan on the radio
June 29th, 2011 at 12:47 PM
Joey Galloway should not be mentioned in any HOF discussion, ever..
what about the spencer’s favorite cooper-era buckeyes HOF?
Or the Hall of Fame for Cowboys terrible trades for WRs?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:47 PM
rod smith with more longevity.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:47 PM
First ballot HOF. This is my favorite TO moment. Love the radio call too.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:47 PM
Nope. I’m a football atheist
June 29th, 2011 at 12:47 PM
what about the spencer’s favorite cooper-era buckeyes HOF?
did I miss-read that, or are you going 3rd person?!?!?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:48 PM
My TO story…
I was at the gym about 2 years ago playing basketball. I blew out my ACL and all of the guys stopped, and were making sure I was OK…getting ice. Normal stuff. There were only 9 guys remaining so they all decided to just stop…but then Owens walks in and suddenly they are back to ten guys, and everyone just wants to play with TO. So I am immediately forgotten and left in a crumpled heap on the sidelines.
Somehow the team I was on improved when TO replaced me.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:49 PM
im not going any person…that’s the name of the HOF, lawya. it has a building and everything*.
*building also serves as my personal residence
June 29th, 2011 at 12:49 PM
I do enjoy listening to the overreaction and woe is me by every Bills fan on the radio
Wow. I didn’t know there was anywhere in the world where people still had a reaction to Bills football
June 29th, 2011 at 12:49 PM
sucks about your ACL, but that’s an awesome story.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:50 PM
2004 was a lot of fun.
/vomits on the field during the Super Bowl
//Runs the 4 minute offense
June 29th, 2011 at 12:50 PM
Ooooo shit. Motherfuckin goddamn. Lisk emptied the clip and then gunbutted the corpse. Filthy.
I soooo hate Hall of Fames.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:50 PM
What’s up with Italians not liking the brothers???
June 29th, 2011 at 12:50 PM
im not going any person…that’s the name of the HOF, lawya. it has a building and everything*.
*building also serves as my personal residence
oh, ok….cuz Ty Webb don’t do 3rd person
June 29th, 2011 at 12:50 PM
was Cris Carter pre-Cooper?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:50 PM
Nope. I’m a football atheist
Me too. I’m a recovering Cowboys fan.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:50 PM
It’s hilarious. They want to make unrealistic moves, find a way to hate any sign of good play the team has, and always think the team will go 8-8 when they have 4-12 talent on the lines. I feel bad for the radio hosts in buffalo that take the calls from those douchebags
June 29th, 2011 at 12:52 PM
ATTN: Stay away from WWTDD right now. Fat Nicole Eggert has become massively misshapen and morbidly obese Nicole Eggert.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:52 PM
It’s hilarious. They want to make unrealistic moves, find a way to hate any sign of good play the team has, and always think the team will go 8-8 when they have 4-12 talent on the lines. I feel bad for the radio hosts in buffalo that take the calls from those douchebags
Sounds like all those assholes in NY and LA…
/yesterday’d
June 29th, 2011 at 12:52 PM
Favorite buckeyes:
1. Troy Smif
2. Gamble
3. Hawk
4. George
5. Springs
91341. Lydell Ross
June 29th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
yup. earle bruce.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
Fat Nicole Eggert has become massively misshapen and morbidly obese Nicole Eggert.
Is it banders or cleet or both that loves FNE so deeply?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
That was a fun year. This past season was the most fun as an Eagles fan outside of 2004.
/Eagles had multiple chances to win against the Pats
June 29th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
SC- you might as well have given me a link or not said anything. Curiosity will always kill this cat.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:54 PM
Yes. He was there during Earle Bruce’s watch.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:54 PM
Sounds like all those assholes in NY and LA…
Not yet. The Bills still have to move to LA, it’s not a sure thing
June 29th, 2011 at 12:54 PM
We’ll always have Charles in Charge.
And get outta here with this Owens isn’t a HOF garbage. It goes Moss, Harrison, Owens…then the likes of Chris Carter and all his seething hatred.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
Favorite buckeyes:
1.
Troy SmifArt Schlister2. Gamble3. Hawk
4. George
5. Springs
91341. Lydell Ross
June 29th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
Being a football atheist and a non-fantasy player has increased my appreciation and watching enjoyment of the game. I wish i had the sunday ticket so I could watch more games because I usually get stuck with Bills, Jets, and Giants games
June 29th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
I like Spencer’s normal default answers to questions like these because I believe them. His personality and his antics probably play a part in what makes him so good. He has a deep belief in himself, his abilities, and his work ethic. The problem is that also translates into a certain elvel of narcissism and combativeness. I truly believe you can’t be great without having at least a little assholism/crazy in you. Some just exude more than others.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:55 PM
ross is too high.
mine:
1. beanie
2. troy
3. spielman
4. pace
5. eddie
6. ryan hamby (entry sponsored by clown)
June 29th, 2011 at 12:57 PM
I had Sunday Ticket two years ago and ended up watching more football than I ever have in my life. It’s pretty awesome. I might get it again this year. I am a 2-league fantasy football player
June 29th, 2011 at 12:57 PM
This was awesome.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:57 PM
/Face palm
June 29th, 2011 at 12:57 PM
(1412-1199)/1199 = 17.7% Owens vs. 10th
(1412-868)/868= 62.6% Owens vs. Nth teams
(1063-770)/770= 38.1% 1975 vs. 10th
(1063-549)/549= 93.6% 1975 vs. Nth
Big fail on your part Lisk. As the numbers get bigger, the difference between a ‘top’ receiver and a lower receiver gets relatively smaller.
If Owens is a HOFer, shouldn’t (looks it up) Ken Burroughs be even more of one?
June 29th, 2011 at 12:57 PM
The lack of love for Bears legend Craig Krenzel from the Buckeye fans is alarming. DOES HOLY BUCKEYE MEAN NOTHING TO YOU PEOPLE? HEATHENS! HEATHENS, I SAY!
June 29th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
This is just a visceral reaction on my part, but this seems really true in baseball, for whatever reason.
/Rose, Cobb, Bonds, etc.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
Every QB that has ever had TO turn against them would probably have liked more analysis of his alligator arms but he’s still a HOFer
June 29th, 2011 at 12:58 PM
well duh…we watched him more than anyone. he was pretty fucking terrible.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:59 PM
first example to come to mind is FDR.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:59 PM
the only baseline Len is concerned with is Buffet Trips Over Average
June 29th, 2011 at 12:59 PM
This is actually making me mad. I’ve really come to expect more thought and analysis from you, Lisk. It may well be that Owens is dominant relative to his position, and there are better measures than relative yards to 10th/Nth place leaders to determine that, but I’m surprised you would just throw out numbers without even looking into it further.
June 29th, 2011 at 12:59 PM
His alligator arms moment in his first game back to Philly in ’06 as a Cowgirl was amazing when Dawkins was about to knock him the fuck out. That game was great.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:00 PM
/Face palm
I like it. I’m a dork. I don’t care. I’ve liked real baseball more and more every year since I started playing fantasy baseball. Numbers are fun
June 29th, 2011 at 1:00 PM
Two votes for no. So who said no besides Lenny?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:00 PM
well duh…we watched him more than anyone. he was pretty fucking terrible.He was like a college version of Sanchez, except he won.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
He would have kicked ass and taken names at the paralympics, then huh?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
Is that why you bought those glasses?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
Let’s not have the fantasy sports makes the real sport worse/dumbs down the fans argument again. Please. Everyone gets what they want out of watching sports.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
i mean, how much further do you have to look to make a case that a guy who was one of the 3 most productive WR’s FOR A DECADE STRAIGHT is HOF worthy? he could’ve just said FUCK FACE over and over after the title and he’d still be right…TO is HOF worthy and len P is a moron.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:01 PM
So who said no besides Lenny?
Cowherd
June 29th, 2011 at 1:02 PM
Just because TO is a total jerkoff, ruins morale wherever he plays and is a destructive influence on teams doesn’t mean he isn’t a HOF player.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:02 PM
Me. Because there was no relativity to it. See comment 63… maybe ol’ Lenny has a point.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:02 PM
If Art Monk can get in (and not Drew Pearson), why can’t Owens? I don’t know if the guy belongs simply because he wasn’t transcendant in a heavy passing era. He put up huge numbers, but rarely did he carry a team. He could be defensed.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:03 PM
Is that why you bought those glasses?
Ha! No, I bought the glasses because I can’t see more than 2 inches in front of my face without them. The haircut, those glasses, and the beard are relegated to the dustbin of memory and twitter avatars now, though
June 29th, 2011 at 1:03 PM
There are a lot of idiot sports fans in Philadelphia. Yes.
The HOF process, all of the voting and all of the writing and talking, is such an exercise in self-worship for people like Pasquarelli. It’s a big, lazy circle jerk of loud mouth know nothings. With a few exceptions. Definitely my least favorite thing about the NFL.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:03 PM
he’d dominate the polio vault.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:04 PM
You really think TO isn’t a HoF player? Really? This is argument for the sake of argument to the Nth degree… or whatever those numbers are that you posted and I don’t have any clue what they are or pertain to.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:04 PM
Okay fair enough. But the title of the post prominently involves “Value over baseline” when that ‘stat’ doesn’t support the conclusion. Maybe if you take Owens average/Nth each year, and compare to others and show he is consistently great, it would be more convincing. The title makes a claim that isn’t delivered, except by a few words. I’ve come to expect “value over ____” to mean a number.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:06 PM
I can never tell with Hef if he’s being serious or not. Reminds me of that cranky Grandpa who say something, you laugh thinking it’s a joke, but then look at him and he’s serious.
Then, you nervously stop laughing.
so Hef’s first comment?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:06 PM
The Vatican elects Popes with greater transparency than the NFL HOF process elects it’s new members.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:06 PM
Nah, I think TO is a HOFer. He was still a top receiver for a long time in a passing era. I just think it’s hard to claim a stat/numbers reason, without actually doing any math (which would be clouded by huge variance differences in different eras).
The numbers are basically how much better the number 1 receiver was than the number 10 or number N (number of teams). Shows that in 1975 Ken Burroughs was way better compared to league, than Owens was in 2001
June 29th, 2011 at 1:07 PM
Maybe if you take Owens average/Nth each year, and compare to others and show he is consistently great, it would be more convincing.
I’d bet market research from FSV headquarters shows a marked drop in pageviews on posts where Lisk applies confusing and invariably cropped tables
June 29th, 2011 at 1:07 PM
While with the Niners and playing the Falcons in Atlanta, T.O. did the dirty bird in the end zone, stopped halfway through and then did the throat slash.
He’s got my vote.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:07 PM
Can’t stop talking about the Jets, can you?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:07 PM
I hope Duffy took notes on how to write a character assassination piece
June 29th, 2011 at 1:08 PM
no shit…which is why TO’s dominance is more impressive.
what’s more impressive…bobby jones dominating a bunch of scrubs in a watered down era where they were using hickory shafts or tiger dominating a bunch of pros on modern courses with their own custom-fit technologically advanced equipment?
there were more good WR’s in TO’s era than in huston’s era because the game advanced and there are more peers. all you’re doing is getting angry at numbers instead of looking at the bigger picture.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:08 PM
Sounds like she’s right up your alley, SC
June 29th, 2011 at 1:11 PM
So we can sit here in a circle jerk saying how great TO is? So he’s a HOFer. That argument done, now lets move on.
Spencer… I’m saying TO didn’t dominate to the degree of the older people, so you should do more advanced stats to look and see it. If you all had it in your mind the conclusion, then why the fuck even read the post? I’m bringing up a valid point and valid numbers, so to say “hey forget those stat things lets go by what I think I know already” why the fuck even have stats? Then I can go back to saying JD Drew sucks and has always sucked.
/glares at Lefty and Taguchi
June 29th, 2011 at 1:12 PM
Put up a poll…I’ll vote for sarcasm.
Plus, I don’t think he’s a Nazi.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:12 PM
Tiger Woods pitching heat rub
June 29th, 2011 at 1:12 PM
Gross. But she’s worth a lot of money so I’d knock her up if it meant I didn’t have to work again.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:12 PM
Burn!
June 29th, 2011 at 1:13 PM
Deportes estadísticas.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:13 PM
She is? From Baywatch and Charles in Charge?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:13 PM
If you all had it in your mind the conclusion, then why the fuck even read the post?
Except the point of the post is that Len Pasquarelli is an idiot. The Terrell Owens HOF stuff is what we call a red herring
June 29th, 2011 at 1:14 PM
Don’t be so Duckworth-y.
I’ll repeat my Simpson quote from earlier post…
June 29th, 2011 at 1:14 PM
Bet she made more from those two shows than you and I put together would make in 5 lifetimes.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:14 PM
This was basically the point I was going to make. You’re on the right path, but need to account for a few things that you didn’t to be able to compare the numbers across eras. It’s not as simple as you had it.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:15 PM
I was away all morning. oops!
June 29th, 2011 at 1:15 PM
She is? From Baywatch and Charles in Charge?
Also that movie with Corey Haim where she got nekkid. Big dollars coming from the residuals on that one
June 29th, 2011 at 1:15 PM
Don’t blame me, I voted for Hef.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:15 PM
i prefer the circle jerk to be about len P being a douchebag asshole, personally.
S
but you’re not looking at it in context. in 1975 eras, it was run first with basic, downfield passing schemes. there simply wasn’t enough WR’s with enough opportunities to truly be peers of the elite guys. the point is, if you compare eras, that difference TO had between whatever guy you compared him to is MUCH more impressive (even tho it’s smaller) considering the depth of talent and the ubiquitous passing schemes now prevalent.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:16 PM
both.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:16 PM
Yes, and entertainingly so. He’s always just brimming with rage.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:17 PM
maybe duckworth’d? but..
CJ, WWos, Phillymantis, st. bear, and anyone else watching phils-red sox: ortiz at 1B tonight. Gonzo in RF.
/prays for no injuries
//Ortiz has to play no matter what
///Fuck Darnell McDonald
June 29th, 2011 at 1:17 PM
Noone reads the (sponsored) posts
June 29th, 2011 at 1:17 PM
I wish there was an easy way to take Owens yards/Nth-place and sum them up over his career, compared to other WR’s. If he’s in the top 10 over the past 30 years, that should get him in the HOF, right? Should be about one-two teams worth of HOFers per decade?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:18 PM
Very duckworth’d. And the right call.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:18 PM
isn’t it funny how the big picture always overlooks these tiny little details?
big picture is bert blyleven and jim rice being HOF players, the real numbers show they were at best borderline when given the most generous looks at their careers.
big picture is joe namath being HOF, or lynn swann.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:18 PM
I wish it was Ortiz in the OF. I would even watch a Red Sox game to see that.
/prays for lots of injuries
June 29th, 2011 at 1:19 PM
that’d be 3-6 HOF’ers per year, give or take. i think that’s too many.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:19 PM
any mention of TO instantly reminds of his, “that’s my quarterback, that’s my teammate” emotional breakdown. he’s a talented WR for sure, but also a complete maniac/douche.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:20 PM
My favorite part is the Pedroia quote:
“It will be good for us offensively, but damn, I’m going to have to play second, first and right,” Pedroia joked to reporters. “I’ve got small legs. That’s a lot of ground to cover.”
June 29th, 2011 at 1:20 PM
Spencer.
I’m not saying my statistics were perfect/clean. I’m just saying SOMEONE should have looked at it a little bit, just to see what it looked like. Sometimes stats reveal things we didn’t think already. And I think you’d have to only look at the past 20 years anyway. Did TO dominate his era? Do numbers back that up? If you ranked WRs by dominance statistically, what rank is he? Is that rank good enough for a HOF?
All of those are answerable/testable, assuming you have some idea what percentile of players you want in the HOF
June 29th, 2011 at 1:20 PM
So true. I know it’s only June but I was ready to throw things at the TV last night when the red sox trotted out a 5-9 of Darnell McDonald, Jason Varitek, Mike Cameron, Marco Scutaro, and Josh Beckett.
/makes the astros lineup look good
June 29th, 2011 at 1:20 PM
I always think of the “if it walks like a duck” thing for TO. Which always seemed odd to me because I would be on a scale of 0-100 I would be .00000000002 surprised to find out that Owens is gay
June 29th, 2011 at 1:21 PM
I thought the Lasershow only threw his family members under the bus?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:21 PM
I don’t give a fuck who I root for or what anyone thinks, Pedroia is easily my fave. Fucking hilarious. Did you hear what he said about being brushed back so many times, Ceej?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:21 PM
if they have the lead after a few innings, throw Gonzo back to first and put Cameron or DMac in for defense (if Reddick plays LF). Anything has to be better than that baseball abortion last night
June 29th, 2011 at 1:22 PM
I just think these 9 straight games in NL parks is getting to me… I’m just gonna close my eyes and wait till after the all star break to get upset
June 29th, 2011 at 1:22 PM
I’d say one team (24 per decade), but there needs to be room for all the overrated QB’s that are going to get in from this era.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:23 PM
Fish is fighting back! This is looking oddly familiar.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:23 PM
Thats what happens when you rake? Seriously, people who dont find him hilarious just dont get it.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:23 PM
Being a Bears fan you probably haven’t seen a lot of great WRs.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
I love AL teams complaining about playing in NL parks. You have it MUCH better than the other way around. NL teams aren’t constructed to have some extra fat guy who’s really, really good at hitting.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
Seriously. If they lose tonight, I’m down a plate of nachos at Champps in King of Prussia.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
Oooo. Expound. Please.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
CJ, cheer up. Boston plays in Houston this weekend!
June 29th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
All of this.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
Now we ARE going to fight.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:24 PM
DMac
No. Darnell McDonald does not get a nickname. Unless “that fucking asshole” counts. High five to any Orioles/Texas Longhorns fans who still hate this fucker?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:25 PM
Prince Fielder
Carlos Lee
David Ortiz is skinny compared to that vegetarian in milwaukee
June 29th, 2011 at 1:25 PM
Laser show!
ask jeff francis who i am
Hope he stays healthy and heats up
June 29th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
David Ortiz is skinny compared to that vegetarian in milwaukee
Beautiful
June 29th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
if you weren’t a bandwagon Yankee fan, would you even care?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
RIP Willie Gault
June 29th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
this is the kind of methodology i use in these pointless debates…since we’re talking TO, his stats are right there with moss’ and harrison’s, his peers. if you ranked WR’s historically, he’d proabably be in the top 5 and that should be HOF worthy.
i just think in TO’s case, that exercise wouldn’t be enlightening at all.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
I promise to stop my Pedroia love if you stop bruising your knees for that douche comet in Philly. I know I can turn it off, I don’t know about you.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:26 PM
Those are some good nachos at Champs.
It’s going to be an abortion of errors tonight for the Sox. Honestly, this might end up being a 12-11 game tonight with Lackey and Worley, then 1-0 tomorrow with Hamels-Lester.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:27 PM
To be fair the Giants are not constructed to hit in any ball park and not all teams in the NL fall in that category.
WILY!
June 29th, 2011 at 1:27 PM
/glares at troy aikman and joe namath
June 29th, 2011 at 1:27 PM
true. Clayton is already working on his induction speech for Joe Flacco.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:27 PM
Seriously. How do you stay so big if you’re a vegetarian? Is he smothering his vegetables in a non-animal based shortening?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:28 PM
/glares harder at terry bradshaw
June 29th, 2011 at 1:28 PM
Woah woah calm down there champ. Just wish we had more home series is all. I understand the advantage for each side. Frankly, whichever way they go I dont care- but they NEED make the rules uniform through both leagues. I’m so sick of the dh/non dh and ‘nl baseballl is sooo much more sophisticated’ bitchfest that goes on.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:28 PM
Did I see someone diss Blyleven in passing? You can’t hurt him now. He’s in a better place.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:28 PM
Now you’re picking a fight with me.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
Sounds delicious.
My guess is he’s slathering his vegetables in mounds of butter and/or cheese.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
Unless Lester keeps the ball at the shins, the Phillies will hit a few homers off him.
ugh
June 29th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
Not touching that. I have no idea how many players should be in the HOF. I just know that Ryan/Rodgers/Schaub etc are going to put up numbers that rival any HOF QB, and there are going to be ridiculous conversations about it. Manning, Brady are in. Rodgers will probably get in. McNabb probably too. If we even have the Schaub/Ryan/E.Manning/Cutler etc conversations, I’m gong to scratch my eyeballs out.
/laugh, but come back in 10 years when we have a post “Is Matt Ryan A HOFer” and then talk
June 29th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
Yes. Every baseball fan should care that for 631 games your Lasershow (horrendous nickname that makes no sense BTW) has broken the Eddie Gaedel rule and no one seems to want to enforce it.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
Ok now you’re going too far Jersey…don’t you ever insult Clifton.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
just gay bashing that’s all.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:29 PM
French Fries.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:30 PM
Irrational hate coming from a guy who likes a team that has the best fucking offensive second baseman in the league. YOU HAVE ROBINSON CANO. shut the fuck up!
/still glad Red Sox don’t have Jeter or A-Rod
June 29th, 2011 at 1:30 PM
gp, i’m here if you need to report….something
June 29th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Oh I thought he was talking about Shane Victorino
June 29th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
It’s not my fault that I enjoy dominant players while you seem to gravitate towards the David Ecksteins of baseball. I think you need to up your standards. Cliff was worthy of wearing the pinstripes and I respect his decision to go to Philly. Pedroia in pinstripes? I’d rather burn the uniform.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
If you do everything subjectively, yes. Objectively, you just don’t know. And if you assume you know the answer anyway, that defeats the purpose of looking at stats at all, which is what this article purported to do.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
0-1 in Superbowl, 1-4 in NFC Championship games…yeah he’s got no chance of being a HoFer
June 29th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Hearing Pasquarelli blow up at Cowherd over some tiny piece of Atlanta Falcons depth chartery a couple of years ago gave wings to a whole bunch of lil’ angels.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Is the advantage for NL teams that AL managers cant manage?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:31 PM
Manning, Brady are in.
Agreed. Brady Anderson belongs in the HOF. Now to read your comment…
June 29th, 2011 at 1:32 PM
philly, what did you think of the home plate umpire last night? He was awful last night. So many bad strike calls against both teams. I really thought either Beckett or Polanco were going to get tossed for barking at him
June 29th, 2011 at 1:32 PM
SC: I still don’t know how you can’t appreciate a guy like Pedroia. It’s the same respect I had for Pedro. Guy is tiny, talented, and busts his ass to stay elite. And then is down to earth enough to be funny off the field.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:32 PM
the NLF HOF is a joke; this point is moot.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:33 PM
OK, a sober and honest question for the Yankees fans around here. Are you guys OK with SC claiming Yankee fandom?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:33 PM
I’ll insult pussies who bow down to their beards of wives every chance I get. Fuck Clifton.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:33 PM
I LOATHE the Yankees but I would kill to have Granderson on my team this year
June 29th, 2011 at 1:33 PM
Pedroia is definitely a funny dude. Seems even funnier, compared to the rest of the uptight douches in that locker room (Beckett, Papelbon, Varitek…)
June 29th, 2011 at 1:33 PM
He belongs in if for no other reason than that his shirtless pictures turned Cal gay.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
When McDonald got called out in his first at bat, I was praying for him to get tossed
June 29th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
BulletJoebeast, bought some St. Vitus last night–and can’t listen to it, because I have evidently completely filled my iPod. The fuck, I thought those things were like Deep Blue.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Couldn’t really tell from where I was standing. I heard that Lee was getting squeezed a little, but Beckett was pissed off. You’d probably have to check pitch f/x
June 29th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Let’s hear it for Freddy Garcia and Ivan Nova!
/brewers made Garcia look like 2003 Garcia
June 29th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
Why should I care who SC roots for? Is he a leper or something? SC IS UNCLLLEEEEEEEAANNNNNN!!!!!
June 29th, 2011 at 1:34 PM
I wish those cocksucking NFL owners would give the players what they want so I can start getting excited about training camp. I haven’t even touched my FF projections yet because I’m waiting on these clowns to figure out to split infinity dollars.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:35 PM
The Red Sox players I have respect for are few and far between, Jersey. On the current roster, it’s limited to Lester (dude beat cancer), Varitek (scholar, gentlemen), and Wakefield.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:35 PM
“How could anyone pass up the money and tradition of the *raises nose” Yaaaaankees. Now Ellsworth, do fetch me some more caviar…”
June 29th, 2011 at 1:36 PM
You’re focusing on the fatness instead of the real point, which is the AL teams are constructed for a DH, so when an NL plays them in their park, they have a bit of a handicap. Just the way it is.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:36 PM
Pedroia’s AL MVP from 2nd base doesn’t impress you. But people who turn down Yankee money because their whore said to, do. Get off my bandwagon.
/kicks SC off bandwagon.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:36 PM
His 1 hit last night boosted his BA from .104 to .122. Your 4th OF everybody!
June 29th, 2011 at 1:36 PM
Agreed. Brady Anderson belongs in the HOF. Now to read your comment
He belongs in if for no other reason than that his shirtless pictures turned Cal gay.
hold the phone… what? brady and roberto may have played just the tip a few times, but the ironman crushes chicks.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:37 PM
In the ‘stampede over them to get to the shirtless guy’ sort of way?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:38 PM
Living in Philly is a little cheaper and less traffic than in New York. They live on Rittenhouse and love it. Big deal. Maybe next time the Yankees fans shouldn’t spit on a prospective free agent’s wife.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:38 PM
You won’t see me making the “purity of the NL” argument. I really don’t care, and personally I would rather see hitters hit.
That whole “strategy is better” thing sounds good in theory, but in practice it just makes guys like LaRussa feel good about calling for a sac bunt or making unnecessary pitching changes three times in an inning.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:39 PM
He belongs in if for no other reason than that his shirtless pictures turned Cal gay.
Ridiculous. Cal Ripken is a man of conviction and honesty and, most of all, consistency. Did Brady Anderson or Eddie Murray turn Cal Ripken gay? No. Cal was gay in Aberdeen and he was gay in Baltimore.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:39 PM
Alec Baldwin and I met at the Carnegie Deli and hashed it out. He’s the captain of Yankee Fandom and said as long as I bow at the Altar of Jeter on Sundays that I’m all good.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:39 PM
But our pitchers’ feet explode when the run the bases!
June 29th, 2011 at 1:40 PM
In the ‘stampede over them to get to the shirtless guy’ sort of way?
i would say more so in a “he’s walking out of your house with a smile on his face when you return from work to see your wife” sort of way.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:41 PM
In the ‘stampede over them to get to the shirtless guy’ sort of way?
No, in a “Man of the People” sort of way. Calvert Edwin Ripken, Jr is the kind of all encompassing personality that makes us all realize how small our contributions to society really are. That’s why his visage is being carved into Mount Rushmore
June 29th, 2011 at 1:41 PM
That MVP was stolen from Justin Morneau. They were merely punishing Morneau for taking Jeter’s in 2006.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:41 PM
I thought Brady Anderson was super freaking hot during his steroid years. Yum yummy yum.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:42 PM
If you do everything subjectively, yes. Objectively, you just don’t know. And if you assume you know the answer anyway, that defeats the purpose of looking at stats at all, which is what this article purported to do.
The purpose of this article wasn’t to lay out the specific statistical case that Terrell Owens is a Hall of Famer (I think he is, btw), but to say that the information to make the statistical comparison portion of that judgment is there. Len and others on the HOF selectors keep saying this crap about how they cant distinguish the wide receivers now because passing numbers have increased dramatically. The numbers exist to compare the passing environments of 1995 to 2005 to 1975.
No where did I say whether I thought Burroughs was better than Owens for that one season, I just said that the information is available for comparison. It was an example. You can do percentages, straight yard diffs, Z-scores, whatever. But whatever method I choose, I can compare Owens versus Driver.
My point wasn’t to do the work, but to say everything you need is available now, and these guys need to stop acting like they can’t make the comparisons.
How did they compare Don Hutson and Elroy Hirsch to Lance Alworth to Steve Largent? The game was vastly different in each of those eras yet they were able to make decisions, unlike now.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
If you punched that guy from The Office in the face I’m OK with that, SC. But it makes me sad to see anyone turn to Yankees while also claiming fanhood for a different team
June 29th, 2011 at 1:45 PM
Maybe the prospective free agent’s whore wife shouldn’t have mentioned she liked getting spit on. Fucking whore.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:46 PM
Owens was a team cancer… and I’m a 49ers fan so I know it firsthand. However, he should still clearly be in the hall of fame.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:47 PM
Maybe the prospective free agent’s whore wife shouldn’t have mentioned she liked getting spit on. Fucking whore.
entirely too much spitting in porno these days.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:47 PM
Cubs fan. Yankee supporter. Happy?
June 29th, 2011 at 1:47 PM
Perhaps her response was “spit” instead of “swallow”. Too bad for her
June 29th, 2011 at 1:48 PM
This is how this is properly dealt with, other Yankees fans.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:51 PM
http://www.pro-football-reference.com/blog/?p=1486
Here’s one set of career rankings (not by me) after 2008 that had Owens 4th on the receiver list. The methodology he used may be different than what I would do slightly, but the point, again, is not to get bogged down into the specific baseline, but to say it can be done, for every year.
Then, you can also consider other factors (quarterbacks, quality of teammates, attitude, etc) to make adjustments mentally in how you assess players.
June 29th, 2011 at 1:52 PM
Cubs fan. Yankee supporter. Happy?
No
June 29th, 2011 at 1:52 PM
Late, but get porked
/Rice fumbled
June 29th, 2011 at 3:10 PM
Sorry, Lisk. Now I feel like a jerk. I agree with everything you said… I’m just used to Lisk columns with more tables and numbers, and fewer words.
June 30th, 2011 at 4:00 AM
Apparently, Len Pasquarelli has 24 IP addresses.
/youtube comment
June 30th, 2011 at 1:44 PM
If Lynn Swann gets in, this complete egomaniac moron, T.O., also gets in.