We Are All Stats Guys and Idiots
Recently, our editor-in-chief engaged in a discussion of stats versus the eye test with Phil Simms and Boomer Esiason. I was a little put out by the way it all went down in the end, particularly when Phil Simms said “the stat guys are idiots.” My issue is this. Why does it all have to be about straw men and broad brushes? Who are these so-called stat guys with no eyes?
The conversation started with a question involving Peter King, and Blaine Gabbert’s third down completion percentage. Is Peter King a stats guy? I suppose by strict definition he is. He cited a “stat.” I wouldn’t consider Peter King and myself very similar. I wouldn’t cite to a third down completion for a single player in a vacuum, without having some sense of how it related to others. I would feel the need to look further. What was his completion percentage on other downs? What was the average distance to go? Were they unevenly distributed against certain pass defenses? What did he do on other downs? All these things come to mind.
So I actually agreed with much of what Phil said early on (very early on, I mean like the very beginning). But I’m a stats guy (I think) and so I feel conflicted, because I must be an idiot. Here’s the thing about stats, though. Anything can be a stat. Most of them are recorded by people with eyes. When we throw out bad statistics with good ones, we paint with too broad a brush. If a statistic is bad, we should use our eyes to observe better things, things that are positively correlated with success. If we have eyes trained to look for the right things, the good things that are related to winning, then collectively we can get better info than one set of eyes making a snap judgment based on 10 minutes of observation and all the human bias that comes with it.
I think that stat guys are broadly painted with some crazy non-existent brush that suggests there is some “stat” camp that is in lock-step agreement, and another completely separate camp that consists of staring at things with eyes forced open Clockwork Orange-style for days on end. This is not reality. Eye test guys can misuse statistics with the best of them when they want to make a point with stats. Stat guys can disagree, and frequently do. There are good stat guys and bad stat guys, and often the same person can be both at different times. I can’t pretend I’ve never made errors in how I’ve viewed something. The best ones, though, don’t view things in black and white and are always seeking more questions that lead to more questions. The question and the issue is just as interesting as the ultimate answer, which should never be predetermined.
Back in his 1981 Baseball Abstract, Bill James said this about good versus bad “sabermetrics”.
[G]ood sabermetrics respects the validity of all types of evidence, including that which is beyond the scope of statistical validation.
Bad sabermetrics attempts to end the discussion by saying that I have studied the issue and this is the answer. Good sabermetrics attempts to contribute to the discussion in such a way as to enable it to move forward on a ground of common understanding.
I’ve seen plenty of excellent research that fully acknowledges all those things that currently are not measured. I’ve seen research that uses analysis to nuance the eye test with things like how good Dick Butkus was despite how bad his defensive team’s rankings were. I’ve seen discussions about the relationship between passing and running, which, rather than settling at “we know there is no relationship”, moved on to findings like this about success rate correlation. The adjusted yards for offensive line play at Football Outsiders, and tweaks to it and other things on the team level they do with the DVOA ratings that help me understand how efficient teams are. That Matt Ryan interception thing? None of the “stat guys” I know that think looking at raw interception numbers is a good way to evaluate a quarterback going forward.
I think being good at it is not just looking at spreadsheets; it’s philosophy and art and creativity and actually watching the sport (but also learning to watch the sport with different eyes as you learn things that may challenge conventional wisdom). It’s about recognizing what you don’t know as much as what you do. If it was just about spreadsheets, I would be much smarter to look at company earnings by quarter. I spend far more time thinking while in my car or pondering while pacing around the house and frustrating my wife than I do actually putting data in a spreadsheet. That comes at the end, and just helps me get there faster than Bill James could back in 1977.
We’ve seen bad sportswriters and good sportswriters across the spectrum. We’ve seen good stats and bad stats, and good eye test results and many bad ones (don’t blame Ryan Leaf or JaMarcus Russell on “stats guys”). When you over-generalize, though, you are missing out. Idiots occasionally have some good things to say.
[photo via Getty]

- LeBron James’ Game-Winning Lay Up at the Buzzer in Overtime While Roy Hibbert Sat on the Bench [Video]
- Paul George Hit a Ridiculous 3 to Send it Into Overtime After Throwing the Ball Away Moments Earlier [Video]
- Paul George Wore Aqua Pants and a Green, Amoeba-Pattered Dress Shirt to Game 1 in Miami
- Shane Battier Kneed Roy Hibbert in the Balls [Video]
- Chuck Norris Wants a NFL Team to Sign Tim Tebow Because He is a Winner Like Chuck Norris

- Quietgoesthedon on LeBron James' Game-Winning Lay Up at the Buzzer in Overtime While Roy Hibbert Sat on the Bench [Video]
- knifeyspoony on Paul George Wore Aqua Pants and a Green, Amoeba-Pattered Dress Shirt to Game 1 in Miami
- wildcat1144 on LeBron James' Game-Winning Lay Up at the Buzzer in Overtime While Roy Hibbert Sat on the Bench [Video]
- resolutedefense on Paul George Wore Aqua Pants and a Green, Amoeba-Pattered Dress Shirt to Game 1 in Miami
- resolutedefense on Paul George Wore Aqua Pants and a Green, Amoeba-Pattered Dress Shirt to Game 1 in Miami
119 Responses to “We Are All Stats Guys and Idiots”
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April 14th, 2011 at 3:03 PM
The Millen reign of terror on TNF is over!
April 14th, 2011 at 3:06 PM
Most of them are recorded by people with eyes
Noted.
Mr. Lisk — how badly was this stewing for the last 24 hours?
April 14th, 2011 at 3:06 PM
You just can’t understand unless you’ve played in the National Football League.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:08 PM
I was to understand that stats guys drive fans away from sports…TBL said so
April 14th, 2011 at 3:08 PM
Nice read Lisk, very measured response.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:09 PM
We’ve seen bad analysts too.
/Team Lisk
April 14th, 2011 at 3:09 PM
+60 yards thrown from one knee
April 14th, 2011 at 3:12 PM
JaMarcus got fired by his Life Coach. That’s not a joke. It’s for real.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:13 PM
eventually there will be an accepted hybrid, stat guys who use the eye test to give their info context, and there will be eye test guys who use stats to back up what they see.
until then, we will all be miserable.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:14 PM
i need an excuse to miss work tomorrow. give me some suggestions.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:15 PM
/pulls up chair and beer cooler.
//opens beer.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:15 PM
i need an excuse to miss work tomorrow. give me some suggestions.
I’m guessing sick isn’t an option? If it is go get some pepto and put it on your desk, pour out a little and go to the bathroom every 30-45 minutes. People will get the point.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:15 PM
crabs.
you mean, like an excuse to tell the boss, or just something to do on a nice day?
April 14th, 2011 at 3:15 PM
he requested Jamarcus leave Houston.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:15 PM
I’m going with “My baby is in the NICU”. It’s worked most of this week.
/slowly making progress
//Wifi in the room lets me do some work and surf TBL
April 14th, 2011 at 3:17 PM
need an excuse to tell the boss…
April 14th, 2011 at 3:17 PM
Yay!
April 14th, 2011 at 3:17 PM
Lisk, this is outstanding stuff.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:18 PM
I’m going with “My baby is in the NICU”. It’s worked most of this week.
Good luck, I know how hard this is. My wife is a NICU nurse.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:19 PM
I’m going with “My baby is in the NICU”. It’s worked most of this week.
no kids… damnit!
April 14th, 2011 at 3:19 PM
lisk…lemme take care of this for you.
/clears throat
phil simms…go suck a dick.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:19 PM
oh, start now.
start asking people how long a steak can stay in the fridge before going bad, you’ve got one and want to cook it up tonight. talk about it endlessly, throw in bits about how you think it should be fine if you cook it long enough.
stay up late tonight, call in after only a few hours sleep and say you’ve been up all night with this terrible food poisoning, you think it was the steak you cooked.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:20 PM
/Team Lisk
What became of the commenter mock draft idea?
April 14th, 2011 at 3:20 PM
You cant just take random personal days off when you want?
April 14th, 2011 at 3:20 PM
I typed define:Fetch into Google and this came back.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:20 PM
Just go with explosive diarrhea
April 14th, 2011 at 3:20 PM
need an excuse to tell the boss…
Two words “it burns”
/hoping it’s a male boss
April 14th, 2011 at 3:21 PM
or, if you don’t want to go with the sick route, say a filling fell out and you’ve got a dentist appointment in the middle of the day to correct it.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:21 PM
“I’m sick.”
/the end
April 14th, 2011 at 3:22 PM
What became of the commenter mock draft idea?
Oh, it’s still on. I’ll probably take a look at it this weekend and get it started. There are a few teams I still need filled. I’ll have to see who those are.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:22 PM
Sounds like quite the dynamic at the dinner table going over each other’s days
“Got a two month premature one in today, still in critical condition”
“I got called dickface by a commenter”
April 14th, 2011 at 3:22 PM
You cant just take random personal days off when you want?
eh i can, but my boss won’t be here tomorrow and he doesn’t like it when i’m not here on days he’s not here. shit gets fucked up then. i’m his bitch basically.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:23 PM
Threw your back out flexing in the cereal aisle.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:23 PM
Thats what I was wondering.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:23 PM
thinking the dentist route. terrible pain. only can fit me in early tomorrow afternoon. i just want to play golf damnit. rain all weekend and 60* tomorrow.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:23 PM
Excuse me…ahem…
NNEEEEEEEEEEEEEERRRRRRRRRDDDDDDDDDDDSSSSSSSSSS!!!!!!!!
April 14th, 2011 at 3:24 PM
Good luck, I know how hard this is. My wife is a NICU nurse.
Sounds like quite the dynamic at the dinner table going over each other’s days
“Got a two month premature one in today, still in critical condition”
“I got called dickface by a commenter”
Fantastic.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:25 PM
good call on the dentist. it even allows for follow up visits if you need to take a half day early next week if the new filling wasn’t filed down enough. anyone who has had that happens knows how bad it can be.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:25 PM
“Fuck it dude, I’m going golfing”
April 14th, 2011 at 3:26 PM
I’d love to see policies like this applied to basketball.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:28 PM
/Said while clutching a Chris Paul bobblehead
April 14th, 2011 at 3:28 PM
I agree. Why give more detail than that? I’ve never had a boss question beyond “I don’t feel too hot today” anyways.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:30 PM
I swear. Big boobed hot chicks are God’s chosen people. No one can tell me different.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:30 PM
You just want me to stop my jihad on Carmelo, don’t you?
April 14th, 2011 at 3:30 PM
I think I had a manager put this in one of my performance reviews.
/good post, btw.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:31 PM
That war I don’t mind you waging. It’s the Paul vs Rose campaign that I can’t get off the grassroots level.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:31 PM
thinking the dentist route. terrible pain. only can fit me in early tomorrow afternoon. i just want to play golf damnit. rain all weekend and 60* tomorrow.
If you boss is a real dick, he might ask for some proof that you went to the dentist. I’m thinking a wake or a funeral.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:32 PM
I think you’re treading on the line of TOO BIG now. Those right there could really do some damage. I would still look at her naked just for curiosity sake.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:32 PM
/hates the big boobed girl at work
April 14th, 2011 at 3:33 PM
She’s British. They only know one size on the other side of the pond.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:33 PM
Careful. There’s karma involved with this one.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:34 PM
Careful. There’s karma involved with this one.
this
April 14th, 2011 at 3:35 PM
So want to click on that line Jersey, just can’t at work. (too many people can see my three screens…damn)
/team boobs
April 14th, 2011 at 3:36 PM
the bitch of it all is i want to use vacation time for this day off, but i get the third degree for everyday off i want.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:37 PM
It’s Gemma Massey (British model or something that hot girls do so they don’t have to have real jobs) taking a picture from just over her shoulder while she’s laying out by a pool. Fuckin sluts.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:39 PM
there is always the “my car won’t start” routine.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:40 PM
sounds like a shitty boss.
if you had an interview, what would you tell him for the reason you’re out of office? Just curious. you could employ that same strategy for tomorrow, and use the spare time to look for a better job, too.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:40 PM
So want to click on that line Jersey, just can’t at work. (too many people can see my three screens…damn)
I feel your pain, I click then x out immediatley. My curiousity gets the best of me.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:40 PM
She’s British. They only know one size on the other side of the pond.
Lacy Banghard agrees.
/NSFW.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:41 PM
Why not just ask for forgiveness on Monday instead of permission on Friday?
April 14th, 2011 at 3:42 PM
There are never to tig of bitties for Jersey
April 14th, 2011 at 3:43 PM
if you had an interview, what would you tell him for the reason you’re out of office? Just curious. you could employ that same strategy for tomorrow, and use the spare time to look for a better job, too
i’d have that better planned out. planned doctor’s appointment or something. i’m just not one to call in sick the morning of, but everyone i work with seems to employ that tactic so i might go with that.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:44 PM
Yeah. Get rid of that conscience homie. You’ll be better off for it.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:44 PM
Lisk:
I know we’ve already done the “hey I live in KC, too” thing already, but: at what hospital does your wife work? My oldest daughter was in the NICU for 7 days after she was born.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:44 PM
Disagree, I’m just an idiot. Good post.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:45 PM
/hates the big boobed girl at work
Wait a second, I thought she was cool and we would all do whatever she says yesterday?
April 14th, 2011 at 3:45 PM
Put a clothespin on your nose when you call, you’ll sound congested
April 14th, 2011 at 3:46 PM
I know we’ve already done the “hey I live in KC, too” thing already, but: at what hospital does your wife work? My oldest daughter was in the NICU for 7 days after she was born.
She was at St. Luke’s (main location) for a long time and now is at the Lee’s Summit location.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:48 PM
Not sure if you have kids, but they come in handy for this. Especially if they are old enough for school.
Hey bossman, I can’t come in today. lil’ Johnny is sick and I cannot find a baby sitter.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:49 PM
St. Luke’s! My gf did her rehab there when she was learning to walk again
April 14th, 2011 at 3:49 PM
Not something that happens real often, but agree with MikeNYC.
Just say “I can’t come in today, I’m sick.” You don’t owe them more than that, and if you do keep yapping you’re going to sound nervous and like you’re hiding something.
And well done Lisk, per usual.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:50 PM
i don’t have any kids. leaning towards the sick thing.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:50 PM
St. Luke’s! My gf did her rehab there when she was learning to walk again
nice try. I’m not buying you have a gf.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:50 PM
She was at St. Luke’s (main location) for a long time and now is at the Lee’s Summit location.
St. Luke’s used to use our software for confidential messaging for a few years. Then our sales team got outmaneuvered by a competitor.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:50 PM
Ah. My daughter had to be taken down to Overland Park Regional because they have a higher level NICU than Liberty, which is where we went first.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:50 PM
It’s hard to judge because Jersey’s girl is flat on her back and the egostatic girl is standing up but the breast sizes seem to be pretty similar. The senator’s sweeping generalization stands
April 14th, 2011 at 3:51 PM
nice try. I’m not buying you have a gf.
Ha! She’s real, she’s from Leawood and my avatar is her service dog. You just got served, Lisk!
April 14th, 2011 at 3:51 PM
Still doesn’t compare with “Whip My Hair” girl in the SUV. Wowzas. Jersey, I need your job man
April 14th, 2011 at 3:51 PM
St. Luke’s! My gf did her rehab there when she was learning to walk again
Well there’s a story there…
April 14th, 2011 at 3:51 PM
I’ve actually never called in sick to work. That surprises even me.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:52 PM
you could always say you went to a bar, blacked out, now you need time to find out why there’s a dead hooker in your bathtub.
that might cause more harm, though.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:53 PM
Are you fortunate enough to not get sick or do you just tough it out and go to work when you’re not feeling great? If it’s the latter, your coworkers should ask you to call in sick.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:53 PM
I’ve actually never called in sick to work. That surprises even me.
When you work full time and are a part time grad student, you do it a lot. Or maybe it’s just me because I put 20 page research papers off until the last week.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:54 PM
If it’s the latter, your coworkers should ask you to call in sick.
Yep. And the CDC hates you
April 14th, 2011 at 3:54 PM
Ha! She’s real, she’s from Leawood and my avatar is her service dog. You just got served, Lisk!
Leawood is the armpit of the city.
/not really
April 14th, 2011 at 3:55 PM
Just our very “we don’t give a shit what you look at” IT dept. There are blocked sites, but after that, anything is fair game. And I don’t have too much traffic by me. Plus I have 2 strategically placed mirrors for 1.) potential boss surprises and 2.) looking at cleavgae when females come in my cube.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:55 PM
I am but I do my homework at work a lot.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:56 PM
Landon Donavan is from Redlands, which in in Southern California.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:57 PM
I consider “sick of work” and “sick of you dumb asses” to be a legitimate illnesses. I’ve petitioned the AMA for their inclusion.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:57 PM
Does anyone know where Landon Donovan is from?
April 14th, 2011 at 3:57 PM
I’ve actually never called in sick to work. That surprises even me
i’ve never taken a sick day either…
April 14th, 2011 at 3:57 PM
It’s all I do at the office now, I’ve been phased out quicker than Bobby Bowden was
April 14th, 2011 at 3:57 PM
Just our very “we don’t give a shit what you look at” IT dept. There are blocked sites, but after that, anything is fair game. And I don’t have too much traffic by me. Plus I have 2 strategically placed mirrors for 1.) potential boss surprises and 2.) looking at cleavgae when females come in my cube.
Hilarious
April 14th, 2011 at 3:58 PM
Does anyone know where Landon Donovan is from?
wiki says born in Ontario, California.
April 14th, 2011 at 3:58 PM
I am but I do my homework at work a lot.
I can get away with that in the fall, but the spring is way too busy around here.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:00 PM
wiki says born in Ontario, California.
I don’t think there is a hospital in Redlands
April 14th, 2011 at 4:00 PM
You guys hiring?
April 14th, 2011 at 4:00 PM
It wasn’t the plan, but one mirror is placed in a great spot across from my filiing cabinet where people sit. I just noticed it one day like a couple months ago. Boom. I’m looking at your boobs while watching you talk at the same time. Everybody wins.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:01 PM
Random, but I am presently in Ontario, California. I can ask around about Landon.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:01 PM
Jersey. MFing Legend.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:01 PM
He grew up in Redlands. He may have been born in Ontario. They’re right next to eachother. I think Loma Linda Hospital is in Redlands.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:02 PM
Jersey, you might find this interesting.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:03 PM
Ugh, I just work with stodgy middle aged men. No female cleavage here.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:04 PM
Before I get into a discussion of the geography of the IE – why did Landon Donovan come up in the first place?
April 14th, 2011 at 4:04 PM
Hot. Love transparency. Don’t think anyone would’ve argued that it wasn’t a goal. NHL’s review process pwns.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:07 PM
Don’t think anyone would’ve argued that it wasn’t a goal. NHL’s review process pwns.
I hope they extend this to the regular season.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:07 PM
I am speculating but
A) Ballz is awake and finally reading Ballin’
B) Landy cakes had tweet regard the Lakers/Kings.
C) I am guessing where he was from came up in the discussion.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:08 PM
Someone in a completely different thread thought he was from NorCal. And well……I hadn’t commented yet today.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:08 PM
Before I get into a discussion of the geography of the IE – why did Landon Donovan come up in the first place?
Ballz inserted a comment about where he was from (#88), I immediately asked a question about where he was from (#90) to protect Ballz in case people thought he was tripping by answering questions that had not been asked, then it went from there.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:08 PM
Rangers were the better 8 seed last night. Neither 1 looked terribly overpowering though.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:11 PM
What’s funny is pretty much the same story for both 1/8 matchups last night. Rangers were just fortunate enough to not get scored on in the 1st period, but unfortunate enough to have that lapse on d in the 3rd.
Still couldn’t be too upset. Both teams were flying around like crazy for any puck that was in the air if they were able. Great game. Looking forward to Bs/Habs tonight.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:12 PM
Perfect. Now, for the record, Loma Linda hospital is in Loma Linda, which is closer to Redlands than Ontario (which isn’t far but is about a 30m drive – I had to fly in & out of Ontario when I was a freshman at U of R) but I would guess Ontario’s hospital is better than San Bernardino (which is right next to Redlands) and that Loma Linda, which I believe is mostly a research hospital, is not/was not as well-reputed for obstetrics when Landon Donovan was born
April 14th, 2011 at 4:15 PM
B’s – Habs will be a bloodbath. I’m not disappointed with how the Hawks played last night. Vancouver came out strong and Luongo played really well all game.
I would like to find every Canucks fan that cheered Ryan Johnson’s injury and rip all of their fingernails off though.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:16 PM
The medicine cabinet in my bathroom is better than any hospital in San Berdo.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:22 PM
I don’t think anyone can take that all that seriously. People loved his time here, but he had some choice words before this series began about the mental makeup of the Canucks, which were disappointing.
As for the game last night, I was surprised the Hawks did not come out with more intensity. With all their “we have nothing to lose, we have new life” talk I expected it to show. Instead they were pushed around physically pretty much all night. And I could not believe how much time Kane, Sharp and Toews spent on the ice – that can’t be good.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:24 PM
As for the game last night, I was surprised the Hawks did not come out with more intensity. With all their “we have nothing to lose, we have new life
“We lost a must win game on the final day of the season and backed into the playoffs.”
April 14th, 2011 at 4:25 PM
This… this actually makes me want to root for fucking Boston.
Sorry if duckworth’d.
April 14th, 2011 at 4:33 PM
I don’t think Ontario had a hospital when he was born (they have a Kaiser now, which is a slight upgrade), so its either San Bernardino or he was born in Upland at San Antonio. Unless his family had good insurance and they went to Pomona.
/The more you know
April 14th, 2011 at 4:48 PM
I’m sorry I missed the first half of this conversation. The second half I really couldn’t have helped.
Good luck to Roethlishotdog’s babby. My boy was in an incubator for a week, but in the same room as the wife. He was a preemie, but a giant one. Anyway, good luck, I hope it’s mostly precautionary.