Buster Olney Will Vote for Mark McGwire on a Hall of Fame Ballot, but Not Manny Ramirez
I missed it Sunday during the Yankees-Red Sox game, but apparently Buster Olney was talking about the Hall of Fame and said something along the lines of, ‘I’ll vote for Mark McGwire on my Hall of Fame ballot, but not [steroid-user] Manny Ramirez.’ Under siege from MLB fans on twitter, Olney’s been dealing with it all day. His logic, in a nutshell (my words, not his): MLB did nothing to police juicing in the 90s/early 00s, so how can you penalize everyone? If you’re cheating now, you’re a real jerk because baseball is trying to clean up the sport.
Do you remember the Baseball Friend? He would occasionally contribute baseball material for this site in 2006? He’s a former colleague who is the most hardcore fantasy baseball player I’ve ever met, and goes to Yankee games at an alarming rate. He’s been tweeting at Olney about this subject, and feels so strongly about it – his argument centers around how much better Ramirez was than McGwire – that he decided to submit his thoughts on the topic.
I respect Buster Olney and actually applaud him as one of the few baseball writers who has stood up and accepted their role in the steroids era. He’s clearly one of the handful of best baseball writers alive today, and quite frankly, a HOF lock in his own right. However, his stance on this is so beyond puzzling, it can’t go unchecked. Basically what Buster is saying with his ‘yes’ vote for Big Mac and his ‘no’ vote for Manny is that it IS OK to do something illegal, immoral and unhealthy as long as everyone else is doing it and the governing body is looking the other way. It is NOT OK to do the EXACT SAME THING when testing is put in place and fewer (not no one, because, well, c’mon,) people are doing it. The issue here is not whether or not you believe steroid users belong in the HOF. The issue here is what we demand of our arbiters.
What is it we want from a home plate umpire more than anything else? Consistency. We don’t care if he’s calling the ball six inches off the plate to righties a strike as long as he’s doing it for both teams and for the entire game. We need this consistency to help us understand what we’re watching. Well, baseball writers are the arbiters of the Hall of Fame, for better or for worse. We don’t care if they put all steroid users in or none of them, but consistency is necessary in order for the Hall of Fame to make any sense at all. Personally, I think all worthy players should get in, roids or no. I think it would be a incredible mistake and a massive oversight to just pretend that 15-20 years of baseball history never happened. I’m perfectly comfortable explaining to my son why all of the home run numbers went up for 15 years. I’m not comfortable trying to pretend that McGwire and Bonds and Sosa and Manny didn’t exist. That said, the idea that Mac and Barry can get in, but Manny can’t is simply a case of randomly setting the bar where you feel like it. It’s not impartial. It’s not fair and balanced. It’s nothing but an arbitrary placement in time of when the EXACT same behavior became unethical.
I understand that this issue is complex. I understand advanced baseball metrics far better than I do the steroid issue. Great writers like Olney and Keith Law have confusing points of view on this issue that I’m not entirely sure are clear even to them. Paul Simon once said that he loved being in a recording studio because, “there is no problem you can’t solve in a recording studio. It’s not like life.” I realize that understanding xFIP and BABIP are the recording studio and steroids are the life in this equation. But please, arbiters of the Hall, PLEASE just give us some consistency. We’re having enough trouble sorting this out for ourselves.
What we’ll never know: Was Manny juicing like everyone else throughout his career? Or was he cheating because his career and skills were in decline and he was looking for another year and a few more paychecks?

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174 Responses to “Buster Olney Will Vote for Mark McGwire on a Hall of Fame Ballot, but Not Manny Ramirez”
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April 11th, 2011 at 6:44 PM
Yup. This will go down as one of the universe’s great mysteries.
April 11th, 2011 at 6:45 PM
his argument centers around how much better Ramirez was than McGwire
I was unaware of this twitter brouhaha until now but I have to say this is exactly what popped up in my head when I saw the headline. Good lord. I like Olney but this is just stupid.
April 11th, 2011 at 6:52 PM
Olney is being a hypocrite. And honestly, the Hall voters need to stop being assholes and let the best players of the era in. What they did to Bagwell last year was beyond bullshit. Fuck that. Let in McGuire, Bonds, Sosa, Bagwell, Clemens. Stop this political stance.
April 11th, 2011 at 6:53 PM
I’d care. hey we don’t care if you’re screwing someone as long as you’re screwing everybody!
April 11th, 2011 at 7:03 PM
I think, though probably for the wrong reasons, Olney does have a point. Despite what the shortsighted person who contributed to this post may think, it’s not completely arbitrary to say that steroid proof/positive testing under the current system is more of a knock against a player’s HOF chances, than rumors of unproven steroid use in an unregulated era.
Moreover, this guy seems to really love buzz words with his “illegal, immoral and unhealthy” stance. If it wasn’t banned, it was certainly questionable, though I don’t know if it was considered immoral within the game (andro, that is). A lot of the stuff taken (by McGwire, or others) is certainly legal, as andro was an OTC supplement at the time. I’m reasonably certain that this contributer doesn’t give a crap about a player’s health and just wants to prove a point by tossing the words around, not to mention that baseball writers in general have questionable medical credentials. I hear a lot of (ignorant) people on this site suggest that steroids are unhealthy but HGH is a safe alternative, which is completely untrue.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:04 PM
How? He’s voting for all them
April 11th, 2011 at 7:09 PM
WWOS hitting 270 yard cut 3-woods in this thread.
/boom
April 11th, 2011 at 7:11 PM
Manny is 10 times the player McGwire ever was. This whole thing is putrid.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:11 PM
It’s easy on Central time… no one is here to disagree.
/And sadly, I think you mean 235 yard cut 3-woods
April 11th, 2011 at 7:14 PM
I see now WWoS, good call on correcting me. Still, fuck all of the other writers. Maybe my anger should be directed at the douchecanoe known as Jon Heyman.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:14 PM
I like how Olney thinks the steroid era is over. They’re still not testing for HGH. Naive.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:15 PM
Well this came out of left field
April 11th, 2011 at 7:16 PM
And now that I put out the obligatory opposing viewpoint, I’m not 100% sure where I stand. Just want to make sure we don’t turn into FoxNews, all agreeing with each other till we reach climax.
That said, why shouldn’t someone who tests positive for steroid have it impact their HOF credentials. Maybe you say Manny is good it doesn’t matter but a borderline case (Jim Thome?) if he tests twice, shouldn’t make it because of it? I don’t feel like all the people criticizing an arbitrary line have a logical one drawn yet…
April 11th, 2011 at 7:18 PM
TBL didn’t want to add it in, but right after Pearlman ripped on Bagwell, I pulled up his 1998 article where he needed to change his pants after McGwire went crazy in the HR Derby
April 11th, 2011 at 7:21 PM
hGH isn’t an AAS aka “steroid”.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:22 PM
http://www.jeffpearlman.com/jeff-bagwell-and-why-i-disagree-with-joe-posnanski/
“Even if Bagwell didn’t do steroids, he didn’t clean up the game himself so he’s not a HOFer”
And here’s his 1999 article where he ignores McGwires andro use to glorify his homers…
http://sportsillustrated.cnn.com/inside_game/jeff_pearlman/news/1999/07/13/leftfield/
April 11th, 2011 at 7:22 PM
The HOF will become irrelevant as soon as both Bonds and Clemens get denied the first time their on the ballot. PEDs or not, that’s your all-time MVP winner (7, more than twice of any other player in history) and all-time Cy Young Award winner. As for McGwire and Manny, cut the shit and just vote them in too.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:22 PM
Maybe my anger should be directed at the douchecanoe known as Jeff Pearlman WWS
+ 12 steroid injections for brining back “douchecanoe.”
April 11th, 2011 at 7:22 PM
/impressed with the lowercase ‘h’
April 11th, 2011 at 7:23 PM
Does that make it any better? Are we to let in HGH users and not steroid users? I would think these writers would want to keep both out if theyre so morally outraged about the cheating.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:23 PM
Dear Wide Word:
Thanks for your comment. I’d like to offer the following response. Olney was talking about Mac vs Manny. In McGwire we don’t have “rumors of unproven steroid use in an unregulated era,” as you put it. Mark McGwire openly admitted that he used steroids during his career including the fabled ’98 season. This isn’t leaked testimony or 3rd hand reporting. He admitted it. He cheated just like Manny did. My argument isn’t that steroid users shouldn’t get in, it’s that we should view them all the same way. My issue with Olney is that he’d vote for Mac, but not Manny. Manny is ALSO guilty of being a dummy for still using with the testing in place, but his actual ACTIONS are the same as McGwire’s.
As for caring about the player’s health, I care about it as much as any other human being’s health. This isn’t about that, though. I wish no ill on anyone personally. All I’m saying is that these guys cheated and they KNEW they were cheating, which is why the ones who get caught/own up to it apologize. Because they did something wrong! I’m not saying keep them out (I think they should all be in, with a note on their plaque that they used/got caught/failed test, etc.)
April 11th, 2011 at 7:24 PM
I’m not 100% sure where I stand.\
I just don’t give a fuck. It isn’t like I’m going to forget these players. In of the HOF or out. I’m pretty sure the internet age has enough data that fans can make up their own minds and not give a shit what the BBWA votes into the HOF.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:24 PM
This statement is full of winning. For the “hGH” and the fact that HGH isn’t a steroid.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:25 PM
I think the push for Manny is to say that if he had retired before he got caught, he’d be in based on what he did as a Bonds/McGwire contemporary. If Hanley Ramirez or someone gets caught multiple times at the peak of their careers, I’m not sure how you can say they shouldn’t be in the HOF, even if they were a top player in the game at their positions.
/Not sure that fully makes sense, but something about positive tests does need to matter
April 11th, 2011 at 7:27 PM
I think we will know who took hGH in 15 years when they all go Ken Caminiti
April 11th, 2011 at 7:29 PM
Caminiti drug OD is reported to have underlying sysceptibility from CAD/cardiac hypertrophy, which may or may not have been a result of PED use, but cardiac effects from hGH are significant and irreversible.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:32 PM
Caminiti was well known for his usage of sugar boogers as well which when possible combined with the usage of AAS can’t bode well for the heart.
/not a doctor
//better
April 11th, 2011 at 7:36 PM
WWOS – One glaring miss in your logic. Big Mac admitted to taking steroids, not Andro, full on anabolic steroids. Andro is just what he was taking in the late 90′s. The man was already 260lbs of juice by then.
If there is a stance to take on Manny it is that he was busted twice.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:39 PM
Matsuzaka is absolutely worthless.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:40 PM
Dice-K sucks. Absolutely awful. It’s like he’s never pitched before. Right down the middle to every hitter. What a joke and waste of money. I wouldn’t care if the Red Sox cut him outright and absorbed the salary.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:42 PM
They should cut him right now. Go out to the mound and announce over the loudspeaker that he is done. Put him out of his misery. I am absolutely disgusted.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:43 PM
Honestly, it’s professional sports. You’re trying to be the best, and you’ll do anything to get ahead and get paid. We don’t bemoan when people backstab one another in the corporate world to get ahead and use competitive advantages. However in pro sports, god forbid you take anything to try to perform better, and you get vilified. This is America, protect your god damn neck. Wu Tang Financial.
/devils advocate
April 11th, 2011 at 7:45 PM
At least he’s efficient. I don’t know if I’ve ever seen a guy face 11 batters, give up seven runs on seven hits and a walk and only use 32 pitches. That’s insane.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:46 PM
I heard Pedro was interested in pitching in Boston this year…
April 11th, 2011 at 7:48 PM
Also, Saltalamacchia blows behind the plate.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:48 PM
Jeebus. Japan just had another earthquake. They are like the Haiti of Asia right now
April 11th, 2011 at 7:49 PM
mantis goes to the head of class.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:49 PM
That was just everyone in the country punching a wall after the 7th run Dice K gave up.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:51 PM
I love cj!
April 11th, 2011 at 7:53 PM
That was just everyone in the country punching a wall after the 7th run Dice K gave up. CJ
That was good, CJ. I have a newfound respect for you. You came up with that in less than a minute. Awesome.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:58 PM
2-8, Boston fans.
April 11th, 2011 at 7:59 PM
Speaking of Japanese pitchers, I wonder who’s going to get him and if he’s going to be any good. He looks damn good to me.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:00 PM
TBL, don’t worry. I shall send you some tissues for when Baltimore and Texas take 4 out of 6 from the Yankees this week
April 11th, 2011 at 8:07 PM
Yankee fans shouldn’t be celebrating the Red Sox struggles too much. They should be busy worrying about the prospect of Jeter’s corpse playing three more years at $17 million a season. Then there’s the pitching staff….
April 11th, 2011 at 8:09 PM
Neither should be in the Hall.
You can have your millions, but you’ll never get into Cooperstown unless you buy a fucking ticket, fellas.
/draws line in the sand
April 11th, 2011 at 8:18 PM
I wish no ill on anyone personally.
I would so be with you if this wasn’t in your comment. It’s human nature to wish ill on Roger Clemens.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:19 PM
TBL, don’t worry. I shall send you some tissues for when Baltimore and Texas take 4 out of 6 from the Yankees this week
I have seen nothing so far to suggest that the Rangers will lose 2 games to the Yankees
April 11th, 2011 at 8:23 PM
Devang – I haven’t heard any really negative reports on Darvish. I have seen nothing (no video, no stills, nothing – even though it couldn’t be that hard to find) of the guy so take this for the meaningless drivel it is. But he’s supposedly pretty clean and repeatable on his delivery, has good velocity and great movement on his fastball and curveball. The danger with a lot of Japanese pitchers is that they get crazily overused in high school but Darvish is supposedly the best pitching prospect yet from the Japan league
April 11th, 2011 at 8:25 PM
TBL, don’t worry. I shall send you some tissues for when Baltimore and Texas take 4 out of 6 from the Yankees this week
I have seen nothing so far to suggest that the Rangers will lose 2 games to the Yankees
Exactly.
/Go O’s
April 11th, 2011 at 8:27 PM
Bam, what KC said. Couldn’t have said it any better.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:28 PM
/Go O’s
It killed me on Saturday that I got to watch the second game but missed the first. The loss yesterday didn’t bother me too much because Derek Holland is a legit talent but that late game on Saturday? Yuck. Arrieta might not quite be ready for the majors
April 11th, 2011 at 8:29 PM
I heard Buster say it and agree with him completely. First of all, Mac never failed a drug test. And second of all Mac never failed a drug test.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:33 PM
And second of all Mac never failed a drug test.
Also, Mac never gave willfully obstructive testimony in front of congress… hold on. Maybe I’m wrong about that. But it’s true he never failed a drug test while playing during a time that MLB wasn’t doing drug tests.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:37 PM
maybe no one until he’s past his prime. I don’t think he wants to get posted.
Also, both McGwire and Manny should be in.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:43 PM
On Darvish: He’ll be in the majors next year. He was going through a divorce this year and didn’t want to sign a huge money deal in the US and have to give his ex 1/2. By next year, he won’t have to.
And yes, Mac never failed a test…but they weren’t testing when he played. He admitted to using steroids. There is 0% issue as to whether or not he used. He did.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:44 PM
Maybe you say Manny is good it doesn’t matter but a borderline case (Jim Thome?)
I hope you’re wrong about Jim Thome being a borderline case. I feel like he should definitely be in.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:46 PM
Arrieta might not quite be ready for the majors
Maybe not, but I have been pleasantly surprised by the pitching so far — hope it keeps up.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:47 PM
yeah, Thome’s not borderline. He’s in. He even gets the special bonus points for being one of the nicest guys in the game.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:51 PM
I have faith that the staff can keep up. Wieters is really good behind the plate and it’s been really nice having Lee at 1B. I think the Hardy injury hurts a lot but it’s not exactly surprising. Except for the part where Caesar Izturis is still in the majors. That surprises me every year
April 11th, 2011 at 8:54 PM
Fine, Buster can one day explain to people exactly what Manny did to him. This is yet just another example of why hall of fames are jokes. All subjective.
April 11th, 2011 at 8:56 PM
totally agree with John G
April 11th, 2011 at 9:01 PM
600+ HRs, sparkling reputation, and no rumors. Thome is in. If he is borderline people need to start getting kicked out.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:05 PM
I love Thome, but dude was definitely juicing.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:06 PM
On a cheerier note, Japan’s nuclaer crisis level is at seven, which is equal to Chernobyl.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:06 PM
link?
April 11th, 2011 at 9:06 PM
People will find reasons. “He wasn’t feared enough”, “Wasn’t the best player ever at any time”, blah blah blah. BBWAA voters have to get over themselves and vote based upon stats, nothing else.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:07 PM
I’m surprised at the support for Manny. He was busted twice and both times took place after testing was implemented. I don’t agree with the holier than thou BS the media is spewing either but he signed he’s own death certificate on that 2nd positive. I don’t care what people did before testing, IMO most of them probably were using something and let’s face it, cheating is a part of baseball history. “Crisco, bardal, vagisil any one of them will give you another two to three inches drop in your curveball”
April 11th, 2011 at 9:10 PM
Whats up yall. I see this site has turned into MLBpoon.com and Im not mad. But Ryan Howard is sorta cuffing the low hanging fruit, no? For a chick who is gonna eventually fuck him over I would expect him to go all out.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:12 PM
Thome has farm boy strength, just like Mantle. And in case you weren’t aware farm boy strength > retard strength > gym douche strength > normal person strength. If* Thome was on steroids he would be hitting balls 700 ft.
*Wouldn’t be shocked but really hoping he was clean
April 11th, 2011 at 9:14 PM
Manny wasn’t only a home run hitter though. He was a student of the game (ugh, look what you made me type) and could spray the ball to all parts of the field. He was a top five hitter of our time. Bonds, Pujols, Manny, A-Rod…?
April 11th, 2011 at 9:15 PM
Farm Boy Strength alright.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:16 PM
McGwire was actually better than Manny. I forgot to add that.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:17 PM
You’re right. No normal person has every gained strength just working out.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:17 PM
I ran into Thome in the Minneapolis skyway about 3 years ago. He is not ripped at all – he’s just a huge guy, like Frank Thomas.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:18 PM
Love that the ESPN crew is eviscerating Manny right now. Obviously it’s a blowout of a game, but they actually sound passionate about it, especially Shulman. I like this booth.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:19 PM
I agree with you completely. I’m a Manny fan. The guy was a ridiculous hitter and I would put him 3rd behind Bonds and Pujols. I even enjoyed his schtick. Found it endearing actually. But getting busted twice? After testing started? People keep asking about where to draw the line, if you can’t draw it here the line simply doesn’t exist.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:23 PM
If I am counting correctly, the Rays have employed a shift against 1/3 of Boston’s lineup. How long until the rest of the AL catches on?
Edit – Make that 4/9 with the overhead view of the shift employed on Saltalamacchia.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:28 PM
He’s somehow become immensely underrated since he retired
April 11th, 2011 at 9:29 PM
When I hear about farm boy baseball players. I think of this guy.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:30 PM
Look at his wrists, bet the dude shakes hands like a silverback. Have you never met one of these people? Its like cankles of the forearm.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:32 PM
For those curious about Shane-O-Mac yesterday, he’s apparently on the Board of Directors for International Sports Management, who represents Rory as well as Ernie Els.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:33 PM
Zuh?
April 11th, 2011 at 9:39 PM
McGwire
Manny
Look at everything besides average.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:39 PM
It’s a lot closer than you’d think…need to look beyond batting average
April 11th, 2011 at 9:42 PM
is Sophie Turner famous enough for the roundup?
http://www.hollywoodtuna.com/?p=54382
April 11th, 2011 at 9:44 PM
at what point will TST pop up and compare the WAR of Manny-McGwire from those 2 links?
I just glanced … looked like McGwire might have taken him in 3/4 of 15 or so seasons.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:45 PM
It is closer than I thought, but I’m not seeing how he was better.Manny got on base more, struck out less, and yes, also drove in more guys and hit for a much higher average.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:46 PM
Those are some nice stems on blondie.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:47 PM
She’s a keeper in that tight dress, but I demand Jason Day’s wife tomorrow.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:47 PM
Ballz – RBIs aren’t individual stats. McGwire played on some pretty bad teams. Also average is a pretty poor stat. Strike outs are overrated: They’re the same as popping out.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:50 PM
TBL – I used to think that McGwire was purely a home run hitter, but he also walked all the time and wasn’t that bad of a hitter average wise for a few of those years.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:50 PM
Day’s wife is a good Central Ohio girl.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:51 PM
Fine, the stats I used are stupid. Except I will say that putting a ball in play is more valuable than striking out, because you can at least advance a runner or cause an error. What did McGwire do that made him better than Manny. I’m not arguing. I’m fully prepared to have my mind changed.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:51 PM
This, holy hell, THIS.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:52 PM
my bad on Day’s wife. i had the post all set up but just didn’t get to it.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:53 PM
Just please, for the love of god, not that pasty fish-eyed Amanda Seyfried.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:54 PM
Bonds, Pujols, Manny, A-Rod, and…..I’m drawing a blank. Can’t put Mauer, Utley in that time frame since they’re a little younger.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:54 PM
Prepare to have your facebook friend requests SKYROCKET, Mrs. Day.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:55 PM
Mantis – maybe Griffey?
April 11th, 2011 at 9:55 PM
Griffey Jr.
April 11th, 2011 at 9:58 PM
baseball writers need to shut the fuck up
April 11th, 2011 at 9:59 PM
Ballz – yea putting balls into play helps, but the strikeout is such an overreaching stat. People read way too much into it. Normally when people argue against strikeouts it’s that “well at least if he hits it to a fielder it could be an error” but that rarely happens.
McGwire had a better plate discipline, better bat speed, and more power. Manny gave you better overall hitting ability.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:00 PM
Manny hit in 2 great hitters parks – Cleveland and Boston. Oakland is a bad hitters park, not sure about St. Louis – it’s easy for Albert though. He’s my daughter’s favorite player after the 60 minutes piece. ARGH
April 11th, 2011 at 10:00 PM
There is nothing worse than having your team blacked out and having to listen to the home announcers. Especially the Dbacks shitty announcers.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:01 PM
I was thinking of eithre Helton, Griffey, Edmonds(?) and perhaps Juan Gone, but then I saw his stats and it wasn’t consistant enough to be top 5, maybe not even top ten.
If Nomar was healthy…Jesus.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:01 PM
This, plus he had better lineups surrounding him in Boston and Cleveland.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:01 PM
Tulo!!
April 11th, 2011 at 10:05 PM
Pretty flimsy. Still think Manny was a better hitter than Big Mac.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:06 PM
Wow.
I’d like to see SG try to hate on that.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:08 PM
Eh okay. I’m pretty sure you’re wearing the fan hat right now.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:09 PM
juan pierre hahahaha
dropped another ball for latroy thorton
April 11th, 2011 at 10:12 PM
I’d like to see SG try to hate on that
yeah floppy tits my ass
April 11th, 2011 at 10:12 PM
Nobody can stop the Cabreras. My team needs to sign some Cabreras. I was at the game Saturday and I think they got about 5 hits. Break up the Tribe
April 11th, 2011 at 10:12 PM
I’m totally not. When you posted links to their stats I was prepared to be blown away by some advanced stats. But you’re saying it’s because of the other guys on the team and the stadiums they played half their games in. Manny was better at everything except home-runs. He has almost 1,000 more hits.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:14 PM
Isn’t that up to you what with the banhammer and all?
April 11th, 2011 at 10:17 PM
Oh yea: TBL please stop moderating all of JPQ’s comments.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:18 PM
McGwire missed two years of his career during his prime to injury, played on some bad teams, and had tougher pitching furing the late 80s early 90s than Manny. Smaller, friendlier parks for manny, better lineups for Manny. McGwire walked more, had more homers.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:29 PM
Late to the party… but don’t you think Manny just said… fuck it… I’ll do a little HGH and maybe resurrect my career… and if I get caught, I’ll just quit? He never really seemed to take the drug testing stuff seriously anyway.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:36 PM
Let’s not underestimate SG, since we’re tossing out that word. She will hate that picture to death if you put it up when she’s around
April 11th, 2011 at 10:36 PM
atl badger-yes
April 11th, 2011 at 10:39 PM
I was looking at the 162 game averages. Plus I’m not so sure about the facing the tougher pitching part. Agree to disagree.
April 11th, 2011 at 10:39 PM
What does fetch think?
April 11th, 2011 at 11:06 PM
I think it’s time to contract Pujols. Pujols has looked so tight this year. What is it going to take for Pujols to loosen up?
April 11th, 2011 at 11:12 PM
More hgh?
April 11th, 2011 at 11:12 PM
They should let the players use HGH. Fuck it. Seriously.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:13 PM
Blame Canseco
April 11th, 2011 at 11:16 PM
It helps the players heal. If everyone can use it, then it isn’t an unfair advantage. I really don’t care. Barry Bonds hit 73 fucking homeruns. The hallowed numbers have been bent over and sodomized dozens of times by now. No more 61*, no more 755.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:20 PM
I agree. The only objective evidence is the stats and what the players have admitted to. The rest is conjecture and subjectivity. How do we know exactly how often individuals were juicing, and how much it contributed to their greatness?
However, I want to defend Olney’s logic. He’s just talking about varying degrees of culpability. That’s perfectly reasonable.
I couldn’t disagree with this statement more: “We don’t care if [writers] put all steroid users in or none of them, but consistency is necessary in order for the Hall of Fame to make any sense at all.” This is a flawed oversimplification because not every steroids user is created equal. There are varying degrees of culpability. For example, using a lot is different from using a little. Getting caught and learning your lesson is different from continuously trying to skirt the rules. Etc.
The context of the era is part of this calculus of culpability, and that’s all Olney is saying. And I agree with it. Is a murder in the 19th C. wild west the same as a murder today? No. Similarly, it’s reasonable to believe that Manny using now makes him more culpable than anyone using in the ’90s.
There are problems with Olney’s final conclusion that Manny is so culpable that he doesn’t deserve a Hall vote because a) as mentioned he doesn’t know enough and b) it’s hard to draw a line as to what makes someone too guilty to get a Hall of Fame vote. BUT that doesn’t mean Olney’s being unreasonable to think about it or mention it.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:26 PM
For example, using a lot is different from using a little.
That’s why McGwire can’t make it. If I understand things correctly, he went 14 years without eating anything but steroids and pre-cursors*
* might not be factually correct
April 11th, 2011 at 11:29 PM
Mac walked a little more and struck out a little more, Manny hit for a higher AVG. But even if you think the rate stats are a wash (Manny’s OPS was .996, Mac’s .982,) here’s the number that should jump out at you: 9774 to 7660. That’s the edge in plate appearances Manny has on Mac. Over 2000 more PA of .996 OPS is basically 3 MVP type seasons more. Also consider Mac’s extreme low points (and granted, high points,) vs. Manny’s freakish consistency. Manny had the better offensive career (WAR, by the way is almost identical, Manny at 71.9 to Mac’s 70.6,) and neither was much on the bases or on D. It’s not a blowout, but Manny’s the better bat.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:40 PM
Sweet. You’re move, Shat. And stop filling my feed with wrestling tweets please.
April 11th, 2011 at 11:40 PM
Hand Model:
I see your point and you’ve articulated it better than Buster has, but I still have to disagree for a couple of reasons. One, we’re not talking about the difference of the ACTUAL Wild West until now (over 100 years.) Manny and Mac were contemporaries, experiencing their peak years at virtually the same time. Second, the issue here isn’t culpability, or at least for the most part, it shouldn’t be. They both cheated an equal amount to enhance their overall numbers. Mac gave evasive and unhelpful testimony in front of CONGRESS! Does giving a short interview and admitting to using years later really put him on higher moral ground than Manny?
April 11th, 2011 at 11:42 PM
McGwire was a pretty good defender, at least early in his career. Manny was a butcher from the time he got drafted. The Baseball Friend, the fact that they are so close in WAR when Manny had so many more games/plate appearances actually gives the edge to McGwire, doesn’t it?
April 11th, 2011 at 11:56 PM
@ Baseball Friend
Ultimately I, too, disagree with Olney’s conclusion and how he arrived there. As you said, reasonable minds could find Mac just as or even more culpable than Manny. Olney overemphasizes the recent failed test, and that’s where he loses me.
But I think it’s ok to consider bad behavior in a Hall of Fame vote generally. And I don’t think it makes sense to say “all bad behavior goes in or none of it does.” Olney tried to make a case in shades of grey but failed miserably. I’m just defending his attempt and the logic behind it.
April 12th, 2011 at 12:05 AM
Stark: Your argument comes down to quality/quantity to some degree and I see your point. I guess what I’m saying is that if I had to divide 70-72 wins above replacement up, I’d prefer to have Manny pounding out 5-6 win seasons every year as opposed to Mac giving me 7 one year and 2 the next. Too many ups/downs for Mac for me when compared to Manny, but perhaps that’s just personal preference. Mac hurt you in some years. Manny never did.
April 12th, 2011 at 12:12 AM
Hand: Again, I see your point. I’m not saying I don’t see shades of grey. I just don’t see much difference between what Manny did and what Mac did. It’s easy to look back now and say Mac never failed a test, because he got out before there was testing. But suggesting that makes him somehow morally superior to Manny assumes that Mac would definitely have stopped using after testing went into effect and I’m not prepared to make that leap. That’s my whole problem with Buster’s stance. The facts are that the two did the same thing. Testing was something that OTHER people administered. Both players chose to cheat. If anything, we have rock solid proof that Mac cheated during his prime (his admission,) and we don’t quite have that on Manny. We may believe that he did, but the only tests we have are at the latter stages of Manny’s career. So if we’re only going by what we 100% KNOW, Mac’s numbers would appear to be more inflated, right? If he didn’t start using in the mid 90′s, he might very well have been another slugger who flamed out early because he couldn’t stay healthy, etc.
April 12th, 2011 at 12:35 AM
McGwire proponents would rather bombard you with things you can’t quantify, like where they played half their games and how ‘good’ their team-mates are and discount things you can. Like games missed due to injuries, hits, batting average, and OPS.
April 12th, 2011 at 12:39 AM
Like I said I agree, Mac is just as culpable if not more so in many ways. Buster was making the clunky case that Manny is more culpable because, in essence, he is a repeat offender. I disagree that this ought to bar him from the Hall. As you (and I) both mentioned, we just don’t know enough about what Manny did in the ’90s, and that should weigh more heavily into Buster’s voting decision. Culpability can when appropriate and when considered carefully; but it wasn’t considered carefully here by Buster.
Honestly, I just think Olney is suffering from some recency bias and it will pass. Here is defiant Manny being defiant Manny, giving the symbolic middle finger to baseball and its retroactive morality (and by extension the writers who preach it) while riding off into the sunset with a quarter billion dollars. It clearly got to Olney this time.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:04 AM
Sad I missed this.
If Manny had 2000 more PAs than Mac, would that make McGwire’s stats more impressive? Stark already hit my point it appears.
Both were great players. Both gave your great production in your lineup. However lets put this in terms of singles and walks.
Excuse me if my math is off, as I’m tired and I’m going off of baseball reference.
Manny’s career he has 1452 singles, and 1329 walks. That’s 2781 PAs that ended up with him on first (baring of course errors and HBP). McGwire had 785 singles but 1317 walks, so 2102 trips to first. Here’s the big difference: Manny played in 628 more games and had 2114 more Plate Appearances.
58% of Manny’s hits were singles. 48% of McGwires here singles.
Manny had only 12 more walks in over 2,000 more PAs than McGwire.
McGwire fought back injuries throughout his career. I know that doesn’t help his HOF credentials, but it does explain the lost of PAs and ineffectiveness later in his career. Remember, McGwire lost two years in his prime due to injuries. Not saying he makes up 2000 PAs, but who knows what his numbers would be like.
Manny hit homers every 17.6 PA, while McGwire hit 13.1. my math is probably off, but lets say McGwire gets those 2114 to even things up. That’s another 158 homers. That would put him at 741. Lets low ball it and say it moves to 20 per HR. That’s still 105, and that would be one of the worst stretches of his career. Of course, it’s all if/ands/buts, but McGwire was in my opinion was better. Manny was the better hitter as in he could spray the field and put the ball wherever he wanted, but he was a huge liability in the field, as McGwire was a decent fielder (albeit at first) early in his career until he started getting injured.
Guff. After all this it’s going to sound stupid but they’re different hitters and had different approaches. McGwire had the better eye and more disipline.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:05 AM
Oh and Balls, how can you not quantify bad teams?
April 12th, 2011 at 1:29 AM
I like the Money Pit. That’s my answer to that question.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:34 AM
You can’t quantify how a bad teams effect how good of a hitter a player is. You can try, but you won’t succeed. Like when people say Peyton Manning sucks in the postseason because he has the 3rd worst starting field position in the Super Bowl era. Nice try. We watch the games. Now drive on through.
/that Peyton Manning bit was just for show. It’s been sticking in my craw for a few months but I haven’t been able to rid myself of it due to sanders retiring temporarily.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:37 AM
I haven’t read the whole thread, but people are seriously arguing that McGwire is better than Manny? I probably like McGwire more than Manny, but come on.
Ballz: Are you excited about the playoffs? Thunder are 19-4 since the trade (although Perkins hasn’t played all of those games, and also the only good wins I can think of were against the Heat and Magic). Still I am looking forward to it. The great thing for me is I’ll be happy if the Thunder win their first round series, while they have a much higher ceiling. Whereas I imagine you are thinking title or bust for the Lakers.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:38 AM
Yes, but RBIs come from people being on base. If your teammates can’t get on base…also, if he’s the only hitter worth a damn on a team, he wont see pitches he can drive. Why pitch to him if the guy hitting next is terrible?
And you can add in a ballparks effect on hitting. There are a few stats to back this up. Park Factors include things such as fence distances, fence heights, even altitude and humidity.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:41 AM
Should read Heat and Lakers. Although hopefully they beat the Magic later this week.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:46 AM
I think people confuse hitting ability with hitting. Manny had more hitting ability. There’s no question in that. However McGwire had more patience and plate discipline.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:53 AM
How many seasons did he play with Jose Canseco and Jim Edomonds backing him up? Or Ray Lankford and Brian Jordan? That seems laughable now but those guys got on base and were dangerous. He drove 100 runs exactly twice in 8 seasons in Oakland with the greatest leadoff hitter EVER playing with him for a bulk of those seasons. His swing was built to do one thing: hit homeruns. He isn’t half the hitter Manny is. You can’t see the forest for the trees. Plus your a Yankee fan who probably hates Manny anyway because he killed the Yanks for about 14 seasons.
April 12th, 2011 at 1:59 AM
Of course it’s title or bust. I don’t look forward to the playoffs because the only gratification comes at the end of he finals and at the end of every night I’m either incredibly pissed or relieved. The Lakers are a maddening team to root for because of how they coast sometimes. So I’m not excited for the playoffs because I’m dreading the stress and hair loss.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:02 AM
Gotcha. I guess I should be grateful to have a team I can be genuinely excited about for the future while they still have a chance to win now. In fact, I am grateful.
In any case, good luck to you. I guess it’s still up in the air but if/when the Thunder play the Lakers in the playoffs it should be a great series.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:03 AM
That’s racist. Plus you’re wrong McGwire made far more outs than Manny did.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:06 AM
Being There is on HD Movies. This is a great movie.
As far as McGwire v. Ramirez goes, I am still having trouble believing there are legit stats to marshall a case in favor of McGwire. However GSG has done a good job in that regard. As much as I hate to do it, I’m going to rely on the old eye test and say that Manny was definitely the superior player.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:06 AM
Stop being so goddamn magnanimous. If you root for that piece of shit Kendrick Perkins, I don’t want to be friends with you. he averages 6 and 6 and runs his yap like he’s Dwight Howard. Plus the future will be pretty short considering Russell Westbrook is an obvious future-Laker.
/playing the part
April 12th, 2011 at 2:09 AM
Go smoke some crack, Ballz, you degenerate west-coast bastard. Pau Gasol looks like if a chicken fucked a dinosaur and then gave birth to its partially aborted fetus.
/ I hope that works
April 12th, 2011 at 2:09 AM
The old eye test was rendered obsolete ever since Mark McGwire lead his team in 8th inning doubles in the month of August.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:11 AM
Yes, I hated Ramirez, that’s why I defended him on TVF and other websites. What do I know? I’m just a Yankee fan.
It’s a lot easier to just tell me I don’t know what I’m talking than arguing me with facts besides fucking RBIs.
Ricky Henderson? McGwire played five/six seasons with him (Henderson was in Toronto for half a year). During those five/six years, McGwire had 90, 104 and 108 of the almighty RBI in three of those five years. with two of those lost to injury. I guess if McGwire was sent to the plate while he was injured McGwire could have more of those RBIs and he could win “Ballz Greatest Player Evar!” award.
Ray Lankford had ONE good year with McGwire, 1998. You might remember that as the year McGwire hit 70 FUCKING HOME RUNS.
Jim Edmonds played with McGwire for two seasons, when McGwire’s back and knees were finished and he was about to retire. He still hit 36 home runs with 73 RBIs in 2000 while playing only 89 games at 36.
Jose Canseco and him played together from 1987-1990. During which McGwire had 118, 99, 95, and 108 RBIs. Those A’s teams included such amazing hitters as Terry Steinbech, Carney Lansford, Ruben Sierra, Dave Henderson, Willie Wilson, and Stan Javier. Yes Ricky Henderson was great, but he’s not on base every fucking at bat and he’s not the only one on the team. The only other player worth a shit was HArold Baines, who was there for two years and sucked.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:13 AM
That’s more like it. HEY! I’ll be laughing when he out-finesses that retarded boulder Kendrick Perkins to the tune of 19 points and 8 rebounds if we meet in the playoffs.
/Kobe does the scoring
//Bynum does the rebounding
///Artest does the dirty work
////Gasol doesn’t mind one bit
April 12th, 2011 at 2:13 AM
Ballz I’d tout you on the Biography channel but its a night only me and maybe JPQ would like – they finished Fleetwood Mac, Mama Cass, Pete Townsend and the Kinks coming up
April 12th, 2011 at 2:20 AM
You can’t just make up websites, cochise.
You left out Juan Samuel. And that’s the same A’s team that took the great ’88 Dodgers to five games, beat the legendary Will Clark/Matt Williams Giants, then lost to the even more legendary Eric Davis/Hal Morris/Chris Sabo Reds. Watch your goddamn tongue.
But seriously, Manny’s averages are better than Macs at everything except Homeruns. And anyone who has seen his swing (and body) can understand that. Manny was better at everything else. I just don’t understand your stance that McGwire was actually a better hitter than Manny. Purple Monkey Dishwasher.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:20 AM
Maybe you missed the game last night but Bynum can’t do shit against Perkins. Kobe can score all he wants but he can’t keep up with Durant. Artest has done a nice job keeping his nose clean this year (so to speak, I’m sure he hasn’t kept his nose entirely clean), but he can’t stop Durant. And Gasol is a weak little bitch who can’t do shit when he starts getting pushed around. Hey, talking shit feels good.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:22 AM
I’ve seen the Fleetwood Mac and Momma Cass eps and think Pete Townsend and the Kinks are really over-rated.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:28 AM
Fuck. I’ve created a monster.
Really? Durant can get his 25, but he’ll take 27 shot’s and shoot a poor percentage doing it.
I did watch the game, and Bynum can both out-rebound and out-score that warped log you call a center.
……He can make his outside shots and free-throws. That’s all I’ve got.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:28 AM
Oh well nothing is more official than the eye test.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:34 AM
#1 I’m sure you were being snarky, but there’s something to be said for the ol’ eye test, and…
#2 The Mr. Baseball quote flew right past your head.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:36 AM
I never saw Mr Baseball.
April 12th, 2011 at 2:45 AM
Oof. Well then……I win. Thanks for playing.
But seriously, that’s a great baseball movie for people who know and love baseball. I recommend it. Plus they managed to find an attractive Asian chick for it. Promise me you’ll watch it……PROMISE ME!
April 12th, 2011 at 2:45 AM
Go smoke some crack, Ballz, you degenerate west-coast bastard. Pau Gasol looks like if a chicken fucked a dinosaur and then gave birth to its partially aborted fetus.
/ I hope that works
it did for me and my funny bone
April 12th, 2011 at 2:54 AM
Well, again, I’ve never tried crack. It’s one of the few drugs I haven’t tried. Next time, use meth. I’ve snorted speed many a time and have enjoyed it. I’m WAYYYY too classy for crack……
April 12th, 2011 at 7:49 AM
Break up the Tribe!
Seriously? Mac over Manny? Must have been a lot of drugs taken last night. Manny was the best right handed hitter since Mays, until Pujols came along.
April 12th, 2011 at 8:02 AM
Yeah good job with that Ballz. This is like the 3rd time Shatner has tried to claim that Mcgwire is definitely better than Manny, its about time someone took him to task.
April 12th, 2011 at 10:25 AM
Fuck Bonds, Sosa, et. al… before you give the nod to any of those juice heads, it’s time to give real credit where its long overdue: Pete Rose.
April 12th, 2011 at 11:51 AM
Sifting through the comments and I came upon the McGwire v Manny debate. I will agree its closer than ppl give it credit for but we cant just pretend the playoffs never happened and once thats factored in the clear winner is Manny
April 12th, 2011 at 12:53 PM
Yea how dare I make valid points.
April 12th, 2011 at 12:56 PM
i’m still fond of you johnny
July 2nd, 2012 at 2:43 PM
Krukow, SF Giants homer announcer said he taught his kids that whatever you can away with in sports is ok. GREAT PARENTING. It doesn’t matter that people on juice are breaking willie May’s records. Krukow, you’re pathetic.