The Big East Loses Nine Teams Over Weekend, Where Does It Rate Historically?
The Big East performed about as well as I did over the weekend. Following opening game upsets by Louisville, St. John’s and Georgetown (the last two in convincing fashion), the Big East went 2-5 over the weekend’s third round, with two wins (and of course, two losses) coming in the head to head games between Big East teams.
Conversation turned to whether the Big East was overrated or not, and how much the tournament’s single elimination style can mean. Some take the position that it means little, that the Big East proved it’s quality in amassing a significantly superior record (29-16 against other BCS schools) and rightfully getting 11 teams in. At the other extreme are those that say the tournament proves a conference’s mettle.
Of course, I think the truth lies somewhere in the middle. For the Big East defenders that decry the uncertainties of single elimination, aren’t we basing our previous judgments on single games? Once we strip away the fluff and even the dregs of the BCS conference, you can’t be talking about more than 40 legitimately measure-worthy games in November and December. They won more than their fair share of those. They’ve played 18 in March, almost half that. We’re not talking about the difference between a massive rock solid sample size and an insignificant few.
So I think that the truth lies somewhere in between, the Big East was overrated by wins in November and December, but also had 11 of the best teams in basketball, and are better than what they’ve shown in March.
So how bad was it for the Big East in the first week? Well, I don’t think you can put enough lipstick on this pig. Using the performance above seed method, which looks at how many wins a conference should have based on their seeding and those historical results, the Big East should have 16.9 wins on average in the 2011 tournament. They are 9-9 and have only #3 Connecticut and #11 Marquette. If they don’t win 2 more games, it blows any other conference since 1985 out of the water. If they win two, they will just move past, well, you’ll see below, into second worst.
Here are the previous worst total conference performances below seed since 1985:
- Big East, 2010, 14.1 expected wins, 8-8 tourney record
- Big Eight, 1990, 8.1 expected wins, 2-4 tourney record
- Big Ten, 2006, 8.8 expected wins, 3-6 tourney record
- Big Eight, 1992, 9.3 expected wins, 4-5 tourney record
- Big Ten, 1993, 6.3 expected wins, 1-6 tourney record
- Pac-10, 1999, 5.9 expected wins, 1-4 tourney record
- Pac-10, 2000, 8.8 expected wins, 4-4 tourney record
- Big XII, 2001, 7.8 expected wins, 3-6 tourney record
You could say that the Big East is disadvantaged by the number of teams in this method. Yes and No. Sure, there’s more opportunity to underperform, but there’s also more buffer against one or two upsets skewing the results.
The bottom line is this. For the second year in a row, the Big East has massively underperformed expectations in the tournament, and will probably own the two most extreme under performances of the modern 64-team era.
Just bad luck? A product of good coaches and veteran players feasting on younger teams early, to overinflate their value? A product of too many good teams beating each other up do nothing’s left? I don’t know the answer to that one.
[Photo via Getty]

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79 Responses to “The Big East Loses Nine Teams Over Weekend, Where Does It Rate Historically?”
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March 21st, 2011 at 12:07 PM
i think the big east beats the crap out of each other during the regular season, and it catches up with them about now. still a great conference.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:08 PM
Frauds
March 21st, 2011 at 12:09 PM
I just think they are good college teams but really lack NBA talent and that is what is being seen.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:09 PM
Good post Lisk. As usual people already have their minds made up on this issue. I definitely think it’s a combo of the two. Look at a team like St. John’s that had 4 stellar wins at the Garden. Outside of that they were nothing spectacular. Their best hope is a UConn team that went 9-9 in conference, was not projected to do anything this whole season and IMO has no shot at beating Duke.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:10 PM
Nothing to see here… move along, everybody.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:10 PM
Morehead State
Gonzaga
VCU
George Mason
Butler
The only two teams that advanced beat another Big East team to get there. That’s not luck. That’s a trend.
Six top-four seeds lost. The Big East had four of them. That’s not luck. That’s a trend.
No other conference lost a 1, 2, 3, and 4 in the first weekend of the tournament, EVER. That’s not luck. That’s a trend.
/Morehead freaking State
March 21st, 2011 at 12:11 PM
Love it.
This is pretty much it right here. Their top-level teams really aren’t that elite…it’s really just a bunch of “pretty good teams.”
March 21st, 2011 at 12:11 PM
What kind of math has 9-9 worse than 1-6.
/Oh yeah, wins don’t matter, the Big Ten has a great WHIP and WAR+ that year.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:12 PM
Probably. Big East teams have lower ceilings than other teams, as a result.
It’s basketball, not MMA. If you can’t handle two games in a week, your conference is shittier than previously imagined.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:13 PM
Did Donald Sterling’s lawyers call?
March 21st, 2011 at 12:14 PM
I think there’s 2 separate questions: Did the Big East deserve 11 spots in the tournament? And did they Underperform?
Obviously, the answer to Number 2 is Yes. But is the answer to Number 1 No? I don’t know. Ultimately, it’s not like the teams that got left out where so much better.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:14 PM
The ’3′ lost to the #11 Big East team, which almost assuredly would have finished top four in Big10/ACC/Pac10.
The ’1′ lost to the defending national runner-up.
‘Nova I think had set a record for worst losing streak entering the tournament.
Perfect storm, maybe, but surprising? Absolutely not. And anyone who had the ‘over’ for 16 Big East wins was a moron to begin with.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:14 PM
My question is, why do people give a shit about the conferences rather than just the team they like? Twitter has been retarded for the last 24 hours.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:15 PM
Once again, which conference is ‘better’? Did any of the 11 not deserve to make the tourney?
March 21st, 2011 at 12:15 PM
If VCU gets to the final 4, they will have beaten a Big10, Big12, ACC, Big East and Pac10 school to get there.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:16 PM
Big East = NFC East
/BEST CONFERENCE/DIVISION EVER!
//RATINGS!
///doesn’t do dick in the postseason
March 21st, 2011 at 12:16 PM
The last few in were WVU, Marquette, Cincy… it’s the teams that were locks all along (Pitt, Nova, Cuse) which struggled. And again, if you are surprised by that, you haven’t watched any Big East bball this year. I’ve been saying all along Pitt wasn’t built for a tournament, Cuse has been streaky, Nova has been awful for a month…
March 21st, 2011 at 12:17 PM
Easier for SEC football fans to be happy at the end of the season if they’re supporting 12 teams instead of 1…it’s simple math
March 21st, 2011 at 12:17 PM
Saints fans talking smack! I love it, with the tags still on your 2009 Superbowl hat.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:18 PM
It’s yes
/Villanova for sure
March 21st, 2011 at 12:18 PM
That and $.75 and two more wins gets them a cup of coffee and a national championship…
/so what
//committee doesn’t look at conferences
March 21st, 2011 at 12:19 PM
Never has been.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:20 PM
Most Superbowls and thats with Philly.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:20 PM
Of course the Big East deserved 11. Presumably the 11th team is one of the 2 that are still alive.
I, mean, there is an argument to be made against Villanova I suppose, but even as bad as they crashed at the end of the year, they were still pretty much better than Colorado, VaTech, etc.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:20 PM
My last comment will be this: If a team gets blown out maybe they didn’t deserve it. If you lose an 8/9 game in the last seconds… you deserved to be there, you just lost. It happens. Sometimes to a lot of teams from the same conference. Sometimes not.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:21 PM
HA! Speaking of perfect storms.
You would think the way they’re talked about, the Big East is to basketball what the SEC is to football. It doesn’t matter if you’re 15-0 in January when you finish 20-11.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:21 PM
///doesn’t do dick in the postseason
Saints fans talking smack! I love it, with the tags still on your 2009 Superbowl hat.
Do the Eagles and Cowboys not perennially underperform when they get in the playoffs?
And the tags are on the hat cause I’ve never worn it. It’s hanging on my windowsill next to the Burger King crown I got the morning after with my breakfast.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:21 PM
Yea the best talent in the big east is Kemba Walker and his team is still alive.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:21 PM
Agreed, basically what we have here is a tournament with too many slots and not enough quality teams
March 21st, 2011 at 12:22 PM
MARQUETTE!
March 21st, 2011 at 12:22 PM
And they beat a…wait for it…Big East team to get there.
/oooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooooo
March 21st, 2011 at 12:22 PM
It kills me. They have been in the bottom of the Big East in free throw % since I got there (in 2001). This year they added shitty defense/rebounding to go with it (even though the numbers don’t support it, rebounding has been a problem, along with interior defense)
March 21st, 2011 at 12:23 PM
Props.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:24 PM
We shall be a state united on Friday…beat UNC
March 21st, 2011 at 12:24 PM
My question is, why do people give a shit about the conferences rather than just the team they like? Twitter has been retarded for the last 24 hours.
Perhaps the person who twittered “Sierra Echo Charlie…still on top” after Auburn won the National Championship game can answer that question. Because I don’t get it either.
/in fairness my team is in Conference USA.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:25 PM
On and on with that myth….
/Pretty much every fan of an SEC school other than Auburn was pulling against them
March 21st, 2011 at 12:26 PM
Ok, so now the Big East is the worst conference. I get it.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:27 PM
Not true at all, at least in Tennessee, where 2 SEC schools reside.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:27 PM
Fun week here in WI. Good luck Thursday.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:27 PM
Agreed, basically what we have here is a tournament with too many slots and not enough quality teams
I think that’s the point that the NCAA hacks don’t want brought up. Less spots = greater chance of quality. More spots = you gotta take in more of the average to poor teams (like giving BCS spots to 7-6 teams).
/btw, I thought the SEC in football = ACC in basketball.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:28 PM
The backlash wouldn’t be this bad if it was the SEC or Big 12 who had 75 percent of the conference in the tournament, and most of them flamed out on the first weekend.
This is a product of:
1. a conference with 36 teams
2. most of them in or near big East Coast markets
3. every second of their 5-day conference tournament nationally televised
4. the perceived East Coast Bias that goes along with that
It is what it is. But it does, in my opinion, seem more like a trend than a fluke when they all lose.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:29 PM
does anyone really count Vandy as an SEC school?
March 21st, 2011 at 12:29 PM
what i want to stop is this “new york is the mecca of bball” shit. i heard kenny smith say he liked st johns b/c they are from new york. last i looked, new york sucked balls at bball on every level, and has for a while.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:29 PM
!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!
March 21st, 2011 at 12:30 PM
Yes.
/academics
March 21st, 2011 at 12:30 PM
what i want to stop is this “new york is the mecca of bball” shit
Are people still asserting that without any sarcasm at all? For reals?
March 21st, 2011 at 12:30 PM
The Big East absolutely deserved 11 bids, but I was not alone in thinking zero BE teams would make the Final Four. It’s not because they “beat each other up” (an absolutely retarded way of thinking- the dregs of the Big East are just as bad as the dregs of any other power conference), there’s just no potential NBA talent in the league right now. Look at ND and Louisville…both teams overachieved this year, and crashed back down to earth in the tournament. A huge part of the problem was ESPN’s hyping of the league. The fact that “the Big East tournament is harder than the NCAA” idea gained traction is 100% due to ESPN talking heads trying to pump up BET ratings.
Basically, if you bought into the ESPN Big East hype, you’re a moron. However, if you’re killing the league right now, you’re also a moron.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:32 PM
Are people still asserting that without any sarcasm at all? For reals?
yes, unless my sarcasm detector needs to go in the shop.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:32 PM
You know who’s happiest about the Big East’s demise? The Big Ten.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:32 PM
But NYC point guards are LEGEN-
/wait for it
-DARY
March 21st, 2011 at 12:34 PM
No sports town markets their own bullshit better than New York.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:34 PM
I thought everyone came to the agreement that it is the Mesothelioma of basketball
March 21st, 2011 at 12:35 PM
Pitt was not blown out FWIW. It took an insane day from Mack and the coaching chops of Stevens to win that game for them. Butler is an 8 seed no 1 seed wanted to have to face in the 2nd round (I refuse to call it the 3rd round). Pitt’s best scorer had virtually no impact and it was still that close. Pitt was a very good team that came up short. The rest of the Big East had glaring holes everywhere, but all that got in were good enough or better than the alternative. Kemba covers so many glaring holes on UConn’s team it is not even funny. Marquette just takes on the mentality of their coach and plays tough D.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:35 PM
The Big Ten.
osu looks awesome. kentucky is going to get their asses blasted friday.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:37 PM
I’m not ashamed to say I totally had to google “Mesothelioma”.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:37 PM
Marquette just takes on the mentality of their coach
do they have cool names like “buzz”? lil pistol starter, scratch, lil stomachache etc?
March 21st, 2011 at 12:38 PM
I don’t think so. I’m expecting a really good game.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:39 PM
The internet hating for the sake of hate. NYC has a long tradition of talented point guards, and some legendary players most people have never seen/heard of. What’s wrong with promoting that? Most don’t do so well at higher levels (Telfair, Marbury) but Archibald/Larry Brown/Wilkens/Mark Jackson/Bob Cousy are all-time greats, and all from NYC… is it that much a stretch to say that Denver or Boston or Cleveland didn’t exactly give the world that level of talent? “Mecca” may be a bit strong, but it’s not exactly Wichita, either.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:40 PM
I’m not ashamed to say I totally had to google “Mesothelioma”.
You must not watch a lot of cable TV. Good for you!
March 21st, 2011 at 12:41 PM
Mine is just a normal Saints hat I bought in New Orleans back in 2005. Too bad its fitted so I don’t wear it that often… what are we talking about again?
March 21st, 2011 at 12:44 PM
Or Flint
March 21st, 2011 at 12:46 PM
Unless someone is going to dispute NY on behalf of somewhere like Philly, Chicago or maybe Baltimore, Imma have to laugh at the NY Hate. Also please understand that the tradition of the ACC was practically built by NY players.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:46 PM
Ur right I shall also check Denver, Boston and Cleveland off as not being the meccas of basketball.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:47 PM
Menarky I will never forgive you for making me defend NYC
/ptooey
March 21st, 2011 at 12:49 PM
Menarky I will never forgive you for making me defend NYC
/ptooey
i love the city, just think it has gone the way of notre dame as far as relevancy-ie, good history, but hasnt done shit in forever yet still hogs media attention and self hype.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:50 PM
I love the name of their PG, Junior Cadougan. Last name reminds me of HADOUKEN.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:52 PM
We pretty much agree then. I’m just not at the point of discounting the history because Marbury/Stephenson/Telfair decided to suck.
I grew up listening to 660 FAN out of New York, only AM station I could get, so I’m a big fan of John Franco, Charles Oakley, Charlie Ward (couldn’t stand Chris Childs playing over him), and Zendon Hamilton.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:53 PM
You should know where I stand, but I also wouldn’t hate on the state of Indiana for wanting a stake to the claim.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:55 PM
Agree with everything here. The lack of elite talent tends to get exposed come tournament time. Hell, Butler has more NBA players than Pitt.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:59 PM
teams in the Big East beat alot of top level out of conference teams during the season, including a middle of the pack St. Johns team’s beatdown of the ACC Champions.
March 21st, 2011 at 12:59 PM
RIP Malik Sealy & Conrad McRae
March 21st, 2011 at 1:01 PM
New York is a great basketball town. It has had a recent drought of great talent, but there is still the tendency to hype up the current talent to the levels of some of the past greats (i.e. you get people singing praises of the Corey Fishers of the world because “they’re from New York”).
I think what bothers people is the assumption that just because a player is from New York it means he’s somehow “better” than someone from any other place in the country, when the truth is it just means he has a proclivity to hog the ball and have a terrible jumper.
March 21st, 2011 at 1:04 PM
Lost to:
St Bonnies
Fordham
Seton Hall
It’s one game that meant a whole lot more to St John’s than Duke. Like when the Knicks beat the Heat and it meant they would win a playoff series.
March 21st, 2011 at 1:07 PM
as a baseball traditionalist an ACC advocate, i thoroughly enjoy watching the overrated big east stink up the joint.
March 21st, 2011 at 1:08 PM
That would stun me. UK is not going to get blasted by anybody.
If it did happen, however, I would be delighted.
March 21st, 2011 at 1:59 PM
the committee didn’t do anyone any favors by scheduling BE rematches in rd 2. they could have seeded it better and not had that option. BE haters could have than seen them maybe go 0 for the Sweet 16
March 21st, 2011 at 2:18 PM
The win over Pitt meant more to St Johns than a win over Duke. I think Duke may have realized that “the game didn’t mean much to them” right about the time they were down by 20.
March 21st, 2011 at 3:40 PM
A few quick points:
1) Based on the competition the Big East deserved 11 bids.
2) Where the mistake was made was overseeding based on this dominant league perception.
3) Kansas is a HUGE, HUGE fan of the overseeding because they have basically been handed the championship game by Pitt, ND, and Louisville over-ratedness. Leaving 3 of the best 5 teams left in the same region (OSU, UNC, UK).
March 21st, 2011 at 4:05 PM
The win over Duke made St John’s season – people actually believed that they deserved to be a ranked team, despite the evidence to suggest they were actually mediocre at best. If that game was played in Durham, Duke would have rolled them by 20+ without even breaking a sweat.