Jeff Bagwell and the Hall of Fame
Jeff Bagwell: Peter Gammons writes with passion that Jeff Bagwell needs to get into the Hall of Fame. Immediately.” … His .297/.540/.408 should be an automatic pass key, as every eligible player with .290/.500/.400 is already in the Hall. Bagwell scored 1,517 runs and knocked in 1,529. Every eligible player with 1,500 runs and 1,500 RBIs is already in Cooperstown. The other 15 players who hit the 1,500/1,500 level for one team are all in the Hall … fourth on the career Wins Above Replacement list among first basemen, behind Lou Gehrig, Jimmie Foxx and Albert Pujols.” Who can argue with that? It’s too bad I just went to Youtube to look for some of his career highlights – that compact, powerful swing! – and came up empty. [MLB.com]
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122 Responses to “Jeff Bagwell and the Hall of Fame”
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December 27th, 2010 at 1:31 PM
WAR!!!!!!!!!!
December 27th, 2010 at 1:32 PM
hall of fame, not hall of numbers.
/fuck bert blyleven even though i support his pro-fart stance
December 27th, 2010 at 1:32 PM
Astrodome. Boom, hes in.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:33 PM
Buff Bagwell > jeff Bagwell
December 27th, 2010 at 1:34 PM
Spence that’s the dumbest thing you have ever said.
either Gammo flipped Bagwell’s OBP and slugging or he has the weirdest triple slash line of all time
December 27th, 2010 at 1:35 PM
Peter loves those Boston farm system players.
Borderline, due to him losing weight along with Irod the year they started testing.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:36 PM
So when’s Rafael Palmeiro getting in then?
December 27th, 2010 at 1:38 PM
Roids.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:38 PM
I’d vote him in over Biggio though.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:38 PM
If he gets in, would the goatee on his plaque stand out, like in 3D? I hope so.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:39 PM
why? because i don’t find a spreadsheet equivalent to a real, live sport accomplishment?
call bagwell great, call him a fantastic player, say he’s better than some HOF’ers…but TO ME, you can’t be a hall of famer unless you were that much better than everyone else (see: bonds) or be a part of a championship team.
bagwell’s just another very good player in the long line of very good players. but he’s forgettable.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:41 PM
RRRRRIIIINNNNNGGGGGGSSSSSS!!!!!!!
December 27th, 2010 at 1:42 PM
so Scott Brosius and Jim Leyritz are in, and Jeff Bagwell is out. Interesting. Fair enough.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:43 PM
Agree to disagree. He’s said waaaay dumber things.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:44 PM
Maybe a Chia goatee?
December 27th, 2010 at 1:44 PM
Roids.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:45 PM
I’m inclinded to agree with Spencer. Bagwell is definitely a memorable part of my early baseball experience partially because of the Astros playing the Cubs a lot. However, when I think 1B of the last 25 years, he’s certainly not as memorable as guys like Thomas, Thome and Albert. Even Carlos Delgado is more at the forefront of my mind.
These are things I remember. Feel free to tell me Delgado sucks according to a metric I don’t understand.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:45 PM
when/where the fuck did i say that?
December 27th, 2010 at 1:45 PM
He should get in, but only if he agrees to play Creeping Death with Lars and Kirk during the induction ceremony.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:45 PM
Never heard of em, were they in Lou Brock trade?
December 27th, 2010 at 1:46 PM
see Spence, now you know you’re wrong
December 27th, 2010 at 1:46 PM
Ruh roh.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:46 PM
he coulda been a bosox HOFer
+1 dr. corn for metallica ref
December 27th, 2010 at 1:47 PM
December 27th, 2010 at 1:47 PM
Ruh roh.
bettman, call goodell for re-sked tips. also, call NBC
December 27th, 2010 at 1:48 PM
but TO ME, you can’t be a hall of famer unless you were that much better than everyone else (see: bonds) or be a part of a championship team.
I think he’s saying more in line of Jeter is in, but not Biggio.
Same numbers.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:48 PM
Never heard of em, were they in Lou Brock trade?
lou brock, was a great base stealer, but today….i am rickey!
December 27th, 2010 at 1:49 PM
SC- Going to Hawks game Thursday.
Kane going to back?
December 27th, 2010 at 1:49 PM
fetch…you need reading comprehension classes. we’re talking about HOF’ers here…i.e. people with the credentials to be an HOF’er, thereby immediately disqualifying leyritz and faggy brosius.
the HOF should be reserved for the true greats of the game, not some fag with an arbitrary statistical accomplishment. id be all in favor of stripping very good players like paul molitor and tony gwynn of their HOF busts because they weren’t transcendent.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:50 PM
Oh dear. See this… this is just no bueno.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:51 PM
DIANABOL
December 27th, 2010 at 1:52 PM
ty, is that manute’s wife?
December 27th, 2010 at 1:52 PM
but if your credentials are winning a title, then they do have the credentials. All I’m saying is you should make up your mind. What you’re doing is saying “oh I didn’t like this guy, so he doesn’t get in. And i liked this guy, so he should get in” which is fine. Just admit it.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:52 PM
I’ll be happy if they moved the game at night so I can cure my potentially massive hangover. Then again, I’d probably end up tailgating for 6 hours instead.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:53 PM
Spencer and SC can eat a dick for the next half hour
December 27th, 2010 at 1:53 PM
LOL!
December 27th, 2010 at 1:53 PM
He’s probable for tomorrow against St. Louis. I’d say your chances for Thursday are pretty good. Curious to see which forward gets the scratch. Was disappointed that Ryan Johnson got sat last night when Stalberg and Hossa came back. Scott needs to sit unless we’re playing St. Louis or another team with a scrapper.
Kopecky is not a center and Sharp should stay at wing since he’s been so effective with Toews. It’s kinda nice to have these problems I suppose.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:53 PM
and if it is based on who is “transcendent” then the HOF is only going to have Yankees and Red Sox because those are the only teams that exist in ESPN’s world
December 27th, 2010 at 1:54 PM
Tony Gwynn is a 100% HOF’er
December 27th, 2010 at 1:54 PM
If you wanted to rile up Fetch, you could have said Kirby Puckett or Kent Hrbek. There’s no need to drag Gwynn’s good name through the mud.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:54 PM
Spencer no. Just….no. Go out for a smoke break.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:54 PM
Spencer and SC can eat a dick for the next half hour
twocanchew
/chinese 69
December 27th, 2010 at 1:55 PM
Lol roast
December 27th, 2010 at 1:55 PM
haha nah. I wouldn’t care. I’ve already said Jack Morris shouldn’t get in
December 27th, 2010 at 1:55 PM
my credentials FOR DESERVING PLAYERS includes a championship.
and the only player i’d take out for selfish, personal reasons is cal ripken.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:56 PM
He hit 6 home runs in 710 AB in the minor leagues. He had six seasons hitting 39 or more in MLB. He was the first guy known for “hitting the weights.” Looked like this. He probably was taking steroids.
If you don’t care about the drugs. He’s a Top 20 to Top 40 hitter all time spending most of his career in the Astrodome. He was a very good defensive first baseman. Hard to argue that’s not Hall of Fame worthy. Baseball is an individual, incident-based sport. Not sure what more he could have done to put the Astros in a position to win. Not his fault the ownership sucked.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:57 PM
Good, move it to the 2nd. I want to be able to watch MSU and Rich Rods last stand. Why the hell are all these fucking games on at the same time!!!?!??
December 27th, 2010 at 1:57 PM
sheed davis talking on radio right now about how they sniffed out the fake-punt. um, the whole brad smith/sanchez thing maybe?
December 27th, 2010 at 1:58 PM
Would make some more statistical arguments in Bagwell’s favor, but I was distracted by working a World Cup for one summer and the stat geeks already lapped me.
December 27th, 2010 at 1:59 PM
my credentials FOR DESERVING PLAYERS includes a championship.
This is dumb on a level I can’t even comprehend. What the hell happened while I’ve been gone? Did stupid pills get passed around?
December 27th, 2010 at 2:00 PM
He probably was taking steroids.
Nothing probable about it, he was.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:00 PM
He hit 6 home runs in 710 AB in the minor leagues. He had six seasons hitting 39 or more in MLB. He was the first guy known for “hitting the weights.” Looked like this. He probably was taking steroids
i agree w/ this Rough Tough Duff
December 27th, 2010 at 2:00 PM
This is a long, philosophical debate that I’ll end right now. No. We don’t.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:00 PM
Oh and PSU/FLA is on at the same time.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:01 PM
not ownership’s fault he hit .226 with an OPS of .685 in 9 playoff series either.
oh wait, that’s right…the playoffs don’t count when talking about baseball because there’s no such thing as “clutch.” my mistake.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:01 PM
I’ve already said Jack Morris shouldn’t get in
there should be clutch HOFs for each sport. lots o guys who came through once, or repeatedly in postseason, but rest of career was not HOF-worthy. it’s such a solid accomplishment, to come through when it counts most
who’d be in it for you?
kirk gibson, santonio holmes, jack morris, edgar renteria, keith smart
December 27th, 2010 at 2:01 PM
No, but I am enjoying some delicious re-cooked ham with onions, hot sauce, and white bread right now.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:02 PM
If you don’t care about the drugs. He’s a Top 20 to Top 40 hitter all time spending most of his career in the Astrodome. He was a very good defensive first baseman. Hard to argue that’s not Hall of Fame worthy. Baseball is an individual, incident-based sport. Not sure what more he could have done to put the Astros in a position to win. Not his fault the ownership sucked.
where does that put jeff kent?
December 27th, 2010 at 2:02 PM
curt schilling.
/glares at SC
December 27th, 2010 at 2:02 PM
It should be named the Robert Horry Wing.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:03 PM
Ever since Ben Affleck’s performace in Lifestories: Families in Crisis, I’ve cared.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:04 PM
white bread
there should be a white bread HOF too–mark kelso, ryne sandberg charter members
December 27th, 2010 at 2:04 PM
also…where’s the HOF outrage for roberto alomar not being inducted?
December 27th, 2010 at 2:05 PM
Clutch? Really? For fuck’s sake. I wish I wasn’t commenting on my phone. It would take me an hour of typing to address that by typing. But I’ll just say Spencer stop and leave it at that.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:05 PM
It should be named the Robert Horry Wing
Adam Morrison needs a home
December 27th, 2010 at 2:05 PM
Yeah no shit. Robbie Almoar should of been first ballot all the way. Fuck Ryne Sandberg.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:06 PM
el duque for what he did to the bosox in 05 with bases loaded and 0 outs (1 out?)
December 27th, 2010 at 2:07 PM
ms621…dude, it’s the hall of FAME not the hall of numbers. all that bullshit you guys rail against is at the very core of the HOF. deal with it.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:08 PM
Agree.
Fuck you.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:08 PM
Alomar was the biggest omission from last year’s ballot by far. Even worse than Blyleven. Other than the first timers, those two and Larkin are the big three who should get in this year.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:09 PM
Adam Morrison needs a home
Vanilla Sky needs a roommate…
December 27th, 2010 at 2:09 PM
ms621…dude, it’s the hall of FAME not the hall of numbers. all that bullshit you guys rail against is at the very core of the HOF. deal with it.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:10 PM
Nothing negates snark like a quote fail.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:10 PM
Vanilla Sky is back! almost 30 pts for Texas D League last night. never, ever count him out
December 27th, 2010 at 2:10 PM
also…where’s the HOF outrage for roberto alomar not being inducted
Wherever people with calculators exist there is annoyance at this. People who are just vaguley remembering who they used to pay attention to are less likely to be outraged.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:11 PM
I don’t think it’s a coincidence that good players have good numbers. I’m not arguing for or against bagwell’s candidacy, but requiring that a player be on a championship team is idiotic. And shitting on numbers that accurately measure a players worth is beneath you Spencer.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:11 PM
im on the low donkey. the blyleven boy and ms621 are the high horses here.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:12 PM
ms621…dude, it’s the hall of FAME not the hall of numbers. all that bullshit you guys rail against is at the very core of the HOF. deal with it.
Unironically, unintentionally quoting Colin Cowherd? You have brought great, great shame to the name Spencer Dick this day.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:13 PM
And yet I care about him not getting in despite only using my TI-86 to play Drug Wars.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:13 PM
im not shitting on numbers, im shitting on numbers being the SOLE measure by which we consider who’s a true HOF’er because it removes the human element from a player’s candidacy.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:15 PM
ironically AND intentionally. i do agree with some of what cowherd says when it comes to HOF arguments.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:15 PM
Spencer if I wasn’t on my phone, I’d devote greater effort to pointing out every last logical fallacy that you are sloppily making out with right now. But I fear my phone’s autocorrect undermining a comment and I’m about to go eat Indian food for lunch. Suffice it to say that you should take a break from talking about baseball.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:16 PM
Thanks Colin.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:17 PM
I went to my doctor recently and was weighed by a nurse. She said I weighed 215 but what the fuck do her fancy numbers know. I look at myself in the mirror everyday and I think I’m a svelte 175. So tuck her.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:18 PM
ms621…feel free to bring it up again. im not going anywhere…plus i think everyone’s missing my point.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:19 PM
Tuck? Thanks autocorrect. By the way Spencer, saw the new unt stadium in denton. Looks very nice.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:19 PM
Now I’m even more confused.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:19 PM
dude, that’s not what im saying at all.
then again, it sure sounds like yall are looking at a 5’8″ 215 lb. bodybuilder with 4% bodyfat and calling him obese because your BMI chart says so.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:19 PM
ms621…feel free to bring it up again. im not going anywhere…plus i think everyone’s missing my point.
You appear to think that how big a deal the media pretended somebody was should directly correlate with their Hall of Fame candidacy.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:21 PM
My favorite is ducking
December 27th, 2010 at 2:24 PM
then again, it sure sounds like yall are looking at a 5’8″ 215 lb. bodybuilder with 4% bodyfat and calling him obese because your BMI chart says so.
You seem to saying the ole eye test is superior to logically based systems of measurement. And you would be wrong. I don’t care if you use stats or not but their value is that they can uncover things that the eye test can’t properly measure.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:25 PM
im not.
im saying that a HOF candidate must fulfill a multitude of requirements, not just statistical. i feel like a candidate must be a generationally great player if he doesn’t have a ring. i feel like a candidate on a lot of championship teams should have the statistical accomplishments to go along with what could be an undeserved reputation.
but why is it some huge crime to suggest that a player formally inducted amongst the all time greats be a player that defines an era both on and off the field? why do we have to induct players who were simply very good but didn’t have the charisma or big time performance in a big time spot to draw in the eyes of everyone interested in the sport?
im a small hall guy…i want to thin the current herd and make it hard to get in, not let in every big market, 4-time all star.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:25 PM
Ok time for indian food buffet. I’m out.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:27 PM
ms, try the goat
December 27th, 2010 at 2:27 PM
Nothing like the smell of loaded baby diapers to make you hungry!
December 27th, 2010 at 2:29 PM
There we go Spence… that is a lot better. I personally HATE hall of fames. I don’t think there should be any. It always leads to arguments like this and it always gets fucked up anyway. The problem we have with the baseball hall of fame is that there are too many people in it already (where I agree with Spence) but then they try to keep people who compare statistically with people already in it out. And they can’t and shouldn’t do that.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:29 PM
Should Ted Williams be in the Hall, Spence?
I agree with Spencer in that there are way too many players in the Hall. It should be an exclusive club, not a place for the Jeff Bagwell’s of the world.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:30 PM
i want some vindaloo!!!
December 27th, 2010 at 2:32 PM
i want some padme!
December 27th, 2010 at 2:33 PM
that’s fine. I have no problem with that. But that’s not what we’re talking about. We’re measuring Jeff Bagwell against the current hall of famers.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:34 PM
of course.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:34 PM
Well in this club and in this world, Jeff Bagwell sure does measure up like one.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:39 PM
that’s exactly what im talking about, fetch. im saying we need to raise the standards for HOF’ers and that your current standard is far too low if you’re considering bagwell and raffy palmeiro for the HOF.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:40 PM
well that’s a separate argument. And quite frankly a pointless one.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:42 PM
i don’t think it’s separate, but it sure is pointless because we both know that both our wishes are falling on deaf ears.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:42 PM
for tony gwynn fans.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:46 PM
it’s separate because I am comparing Bagwell to the current HOF standards. You are trying to change the standards altogether.
December 27th, 2010 at 2:52 PM
interesting…those comments must’ve been deleted because you never mentioned bagwell in a single one of your comments above.
December 27th, 2010 at 3:33 PM
they must have, cause my first two up there mention him
December 27th, 2010 at 3:33 PM
Annoyed I missed out on defending my favorite player, but I trust others filled in just fine.
December 27th, 2010 at 3:37 PM
yes, mention, not “compare bagwell” to anything like you said you were.
so really, you were just bickering about my HOF stance, didn’t like that i think we have to watch games in addition to analyzing stats and got butthurt.
December 27th, 2010 at 3:38 PM
I don’t get the “there’s too many in the HOF!” thing. 233 position players and pitchers over 120+ years of baseball really isn’t that many people, if you’re taking the best players at their position out of their respective generation. (And Phil Rizzuto.) Bagwell was the best all around 1st baseman of his generation, at the plate, on the field and on the bases, hands down.
December 27th, 2010 at 3:41 PM
not at all. I think it’s a bit odd that you think opinions are more important than stats given that everyone has different opinions. Not to mention the fact that the hall of fame should take standards its had since the 30s and switch them because you say so.
December 27th, 2010 at 3:44 PM
and if you’re not up on your high horse about steroid use there’s no need to discuss Bagwell’s credentials at any great length because he obviously deserves to get in
December 27th, 2010 at 4:08 PM
i don’t think opinions are more important that stats. i just said they have to work in concert.
but the standards have changed since the 30′s and continue to evolve decade by decade. the problem is, the voters standards wildly vary and there are too many opinions formed using one basis or the other, not both together.
i just think that there’s too large of a pool of players with a statistical similarity to ignore intangibles when it comes to being a hall of famer.
and i know that my opinion is very elitist and borderline self serving. it’s my opinion that one hit wonders like fernando valenzuela and dwight gooden and daryl strawberry have as much HOF relevance as guys like molitor, gwynn and palmeiro (not in, but you get what im getting at) because of how impactful they were on the game on a universal level. i don’t think you can argue that gooden and strawberry, just an example, weren’t a relevatory period in the game…even if it was for a short period of time. that impact has meaning too and by using such a broad brush to statistically paint with, that kind of legacy left gets ignored because of some white powder and a short stay.
again…just my opinion. but i take hall of fame on a literal level…i see it like this, there may have been better guitarists than hendrix, in both a technical and communicative measure, but hendrix was such a force of personality that he’ll always be an all time great, regardless of albums sold or guitarists influenced or whatever criteria RR HOF voters use.
KISS on the other hand? fuck KISS. they’re raffy palmeiro.
December 27th, 2010 at 4:09 PM
wow…that’s a lot of windbaggery.
December 27th, 2010 at 4:13 PM
No member of the Killer B’s should ever get in as punishment for the Astros playing that horrible buzzing sound whenever one of them stepped up to the plate
December 27th, 2010 at 4:42 PM
If he doesnt get into the Hall he can always be a guitarist for Slayer with that Goatee.
December 27th, 2010 at 4:56 PM
As Joe Poz explained in a blog post today, I don’t think they haven’t changed:
December 27th, 2010 at 4:59 PM
I quoted the wrong fetch quote there but oh well, just wanted to post that blurb
December 27th, 2010 at 5:46 PM
Jeff Bagwell was memorable, had good numbers and defined an era off the field, so he should be in the Hall….I can see this.
December 27th, 2010 at 5:51 PM
weeze: you’re right. I worded that wrong. What I meant was, players have always been judged by how they stack up against people in the hall. that standard hasn’t changed