Analysis of Running Back Injuries: Single-Game Carries Are the Problem
Yesterday, I told you that I was going to introduce a study that has been a long time in the works. What I set out to do was try to measure the impact of specific rush totals, to test the hypothesis that higher rush totals lead to greater risk of serious injury in the immediate future. It is not an easy thing to measure, and this study is by no means perfect, but I’ll try to explain why I did what I did.
The first step was to settle on a group of running backs to use. I decided to use all running backs who have had at least one season where they had 1200 yards from scrimmage in a single season by age 27, going back to 1978. There were 174 running backs in the sample, and you can see the full list here. The reason I put the age restriction is that I did not want to include older running backs, who might break down and get injured more frequently at the same workload level. I then looked at every season of all 174 running backs up until they turned 28.
In this case, when I am trying to measure the impact of a 30 carry game vs. a 22 carry game, a problem arises because lots of backs have high week-to-week variability in their single game rushing attempts. Since I am testing a hypothesis that higher carry games carry greater risk, I settled on assigning a subsequent game (or missed game to injury) to the highest rush total game within 40 touches. I chose 40 touches because I wanted to limit it to the immediate aftermath of a high rush attempt game, and a starting back should generally get to 40 touches within about two games. Let me give you an example that might better illustrate how the games were broken down.
In 1996, Robert Smith of the Vikings played in 8 games. The rush attempts for those eight games were: 22, 30, 18, 26, 17, 27, 18, 4. Game 2 was assigned to the 22-carry row (because it was the highest carry game prior to game 2). Games 3 and 4 were assigned to the 30-carry row. Games 5 and 6 were assigned to the 26-carry row. Games 7 and 8, and the season ending knee injury on the 4th carry of Game 8, were assigned to the 27-carry row, since the injury occurred within 40 touches of that game (22 touches, to be exact). If you’ll notice, I did not assign any games to the 18-carry game in week 3, because it was sandwiched between the 30-carry game and the 26-carry game.
I used this method for all 174 running backs in the group, through age 27, and assigned all games within 40 touches of a game with 18 or more rush attempts for each running back. As you will see, this created some fairly large sample sizes within each group. I measured ”injuries” (whether at least one game was missed) and also total consecutive missed games.
Let’s get to the chart. For ease of viewing, I bunched rush attempt games into groups of three, and list for each the total number of games, total number of rushes and receptions, and total number of injuries occurring within 40 touches of that game type. ”GM” stands for Games Missed, and represents the total number of consecutive games missed for those injuries in each category (I capped it at 16 consecutive games). The last three columns are the ones of most interest. “Gm/Inj” stands for the average number of games missed per injury in that category. “Touch/Inj” represents the total number of touches (rush attempts + receptions) per injury. “Touch/Gm” is similar, but shows the total touches divided by the total missed games.
| rush att | games | rush | rec | injuries | gm | gm/inj | touch/inj | touch/gm |
| 18-20 | 1641 | 25441 | 4421 | 75 | 205 | 2.7 | 398.2 | 145.7 |
| 21-23 | 1700 | 29792 | 4481 | 68 | 186 | 2.7 | 504.0 | 184.3 |
| 24-26 | 1469 | 27260 | 3599 | 62 | 212 | 3.4 | 497.7 | 145.6 |
| 27-29 | 878 | 16979 | 2127 | 52 | 230 | 4.4 | 367.4 | 83.1 |
| 30-32 | 552 | 10793 | 1243 | 20 | 92 | 4.6 | 601.8 | 130.8 |
| 33-35 | 215 | 4214 | 484 | 8 | 46 | 5.8 | 587.3 | 102.1 |
| 36-45 | 158 | 3445 | 389 | 6 | 27 | 4.5 | 639.0 | 142.0 |
Here are some of the things that stand out to me:
1) The “workhorse” backs that were getting 30+ carries in a game had the highest touches to injury numbers, meaning they actually had fewer injuries per touch. This might suggest that coaches generally have a sense of who is healthy enough to get higher rush attempts, and these backs are not missing as many games for minor bumps and bruises. The backs in the 18-20 rush attempt group likely include a fair amount of guys who were already being limited by playing through injury, and some of them ultimately got shut down for a game or two to heal up.
2) However, you may notice that the games missed per injury increases steadily (well, until the 36+ carry group that has a small sample size), so that when running backs with higher rush attempt games do get hurt soon thereafter, they are suffering more serious injuries that cause more healing time. The backs in the 18-20 and 21-23 carry groups usually only missed a game or two when they missed time, and the average for both groups was 2.7 games missed, as they had relatively few season-ending injuries.
3) When we combine the injury frequency with the cost, by looking at touches per game missed, the peak is at the running backs in the 21-23 rush attempt group, with the two groups on either side (18-20 attempts and 24-26 attempts) coming in next. These three groups all rank ahead of the groups with 27 or more rush attempts, because of the greater increase in serious injuries for backs with higher workload games.
This suggests that high workload games are costly, because I am just measuring the number of consecutive games until the player initially returns. A player who suffers a significant injury, usually a knee injury, may be far less effective after returning and see their career seriously altered, and the team may have a large investment in the player that is impacted negatively.
However, the “Curse of 370″ is no curse. The players who comprise that group necessarily had high rush totals all year, including at the end of the season. Some, like Jamal Anderson in 1999, did get hurt very early the next year. But Natrone Means never came anywhere close to 370, yet suffered multiple serious injuries after high rush attempt games, and was done by the time he turned 28. Cadillac Williams never came close to 370, but what could he have been if he didn’t start his career with an incredible 88 carries in the first three games of his career, and then suffer a costly foot injury in the fourth game. Ricky Williams took a pounding his rookie year, and missed four games right after a 30-carry outing, and then the next year missed six games with an injury right after a 27 carry game. Olandis Gary, never got to 300 carries. One year wonder, right? He ended that season with a 29-carry game and tore his knee up in the offseason. The examples are numerous, and these guys didn’t need 370 carries to end a career, all it took was maybe one game where they were pushed too far.
On the other hand, I think teams do need to limit their starters. No need to do complete platoons, as we can see that backs have been able to handle a healthy diet of 20-23 carries without significant jump in serious injuries, but if I were a team, I would try to more strategically leverage my top back much like baseball teams use starting pitchers, and then be willing to spell him with other backs in late game and short yardage situations that may lead to greater contact and getting hit while fatigued. I suspect that some teams have privately done research similar to this, probably more advanced, and I don’t know that the recent trend away from the workhorse back model of the late 1990′s and early part of the last decade is going to change.

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195 Responses to “Analysis of Running Back Injuries: Single-Game Carries Are the Problem”
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September 23rd, 2010 at 12:24 PM
Oooh, colors!
/gonna take me a bit to read this
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:24 PM
Vindication is mine.
/suck it, TST
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:25 PM
Tell me that’s not Idris Bashir in that picture. Natrone “Means” Bidness.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:25 PM
i think you’re onto something here.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:28 PM
I understand your premise, most of your explanation, and definitely your conclusion. Your chart was gobbeldygook though. My head is spinning on that one.
Moral of the story: If you have a really, really good back, never let him touch the ball. That way you’ll always have him.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:28 PM
Basically, running backs are like major league pitchers. They can handle a large cumulative load (wakka, wakka!) so long as it doesn’t feature too many individual instances of pushing the body beyond the realm of what’s reasonable.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:28 PM
/mesmerized by colors
//watches Mike Vick highlight reel
I swear… I’ll try and read the post. This will be my only comment until it devolves into food or otherwise because I’m going into this knowing I probably won’t understand it.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:28 PM
Vindication is mine.
it was yours yesterday too. And mine. Did you see his yesterday post?
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:29 PM
/Polian’d
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:29 PM
I did, much later in the day.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:29 PM
Roy Halladay thinks Sanders gets it.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:29 PM
lisk, go work for a team. this kinda stuff has to be valuable to front offices (or dr. james andrews)
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:30 PM
what I learned: 370 carries in a game will wear a back out.
/I’m fucking stealing the rainbow tabular data idea
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:31 PM
I think Lisk’s stuff is great, but to hypothesize that NFL teams are completely ignorant to this would be foolhardy. They simply don’t give a shit. Running backs are disposable parts.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:32 PM
Doesn’t the platoon system currently implemented by most NFL teams solve this potential problem? If you’re splitting carries between 2 backs during a singular game than neither one will reach the “heavy workload” threshold.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:32 PM
I’m fucking stealing the rainbow tabular data idea
great for causing seizures.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:32 PM
Doesn’t the platoon system currently implemented by most NFL teams solve this potential problem? If you’re splitting carries between 2 backs during a singular game than neither one will reach the “heavy workload” threshold.
somebody didn’t read this post’s conclusion paragraph.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:32 PM
Epic photo.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:33 PM
NFL teams are completely ignorant to this would be foolhardy. They simply don’t give a shit.
if they don’t give a shit, then why would they do the analysis to know it?
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:34 PM
I suspect that some teams have privately done research similar to this, probably more advanced, and I don’t know that the recent trend away from the workhorse back model of the late 1990’s and early part of the last decade is going to change.
this is the conclusion of the conclusion paragraph. For Sanders and Gville
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:35 PM
/facepalm
/goes back to work
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:35 PM
Running backs are disposable parts.
what position is not disposable. QB i imagine, and then, that’s it
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:35 PM
wow. the visuals in this post trump those in the powerpoint i’m working on.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:35 PM
Bad choice of words on my part. They care to a certain, degree, but they’re not exactly looking out for the running back’s long-term interests. They’ll try and limit his carries somewhat, but if it’s a must-win December game for playoff seeding you better believe that fucker’s getting the ball 35 times if need be.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:36 PM
Funny you used Mr. Run-Out-Of-Bounds Robert Smith. Also it warrants mentioning that in addition to touches, some guys like Smith played every down, and either lit up or got lit up by blitzing linebackers, so that’s obviously a health risk as well.
Didn’t Gruden tell him up front after they drafted him, “We’re gonna run you into the ground, buddy!”
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:36 PM
Running backs who know how to protect themselves (hit before getting hit, not take too many hits straight on or flush, get out of bounds, etc.) tend to last longer. I would guess that has as much or more to do with this than the number of carries.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:37 PM
Saints/Falcons–Big showdown in the NFC South. Winner is the early favorite.
Fox is sending its #3 team to cover the game.
The #1 team is following the winless Cowboys (of course)
The #2 team is covering a game between two winless teams, but Favre plays on one of them
/cue “Jay–Saints get no respect” lines
//I’m sorry, but that really is fucking ridiculous
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:37 PM
pass rushers and offensive tackles.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:37 PM
Left tackle and Jim Caldwell’s headset.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:37 PM
QB, LT and DE are at the top of the list.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:37 PM
Left tackle.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:37 PM
just looked up Adrian Peterson … no 30-carry games last year. Whew.
Chris Johnson had 36 in the reg season finale (to get the record for yds, if memory serves)
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:38 PM
Lisk ain’t messin’ around!
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:38 PM
They’ll try and limit his carries somewhat, but if it’s a must-win December game for playoff seeding you better believe that fucker’s getting the ball 35 times if need be
when you put it that way, i can only agree, and i think that’s how it should be and always should be. you ride yer best players for must-wins. no problem with that, even at the risk of injury. they get paid enuf and no one promised them anything diferent. the money players want the ball at crunch time, no?
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:39 PM
what position is not disposable. QB i imagine, and then, that’s it
nose guards, cover corners, quality punters, centers, left tackles, rush ends
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:39 PM
Isn’t that Sam Rosen and Tim Ryan? Consider yourself lucky, those guys are the best they have.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:39 PM
interesting, nice read.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:39 PM
Reason why guys like Eddie George and Brandon Jacobs didn’t last particularly long and Earl Campbell and Eric Dickerson had relatively short periods of dominance compared to more traditionally-built backs.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:40 PM
Didnt he get his foot stuck in the astroturf or something though?
I seem to recall his injury being the result of his body twisting oddly more than being overworked.
Can not find it on google.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:40 PM
Ha fuckface Fireman Ed charged with simple assault.
And why in the hell is Brian Baldinger on the NFL network?
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:40 PM
Mr. Lisk – I know it probably doesn’t move your meter, but I’m liking your posts. the correlation here between high carry games and injury is pretty obvious. is there any data available to determine how hard teams work their RB’s in practice during the week…lots of full contact that effectively drives up the carry numbers for their RB’s? or does the analysis assume all teams’ practices are the same level of physicality?
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:40 PM
LT i could agree with. i think it’s just as hard or harder to find someone with the skill set of a quality RB as DE tho
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:41 PM
still trying to figure out the best way to insert tables and make them readable. Maybe a tad too bright, but there to wake you up.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:41 PM
Saints/Falcons–Big showdown in the NFC South. Winner is the early favorite.
Fox is sending its #3 team to cover the game.
The #1 team is following the winless Cowboys (of course)
The #2 team is covering a game between two winless teams, but Favre plays on one of them
/cue “Jay–Saints get no respect” lines
//I’m sorry, but that really is fucking ridiculous
you care who the announcers for your game are, after your team just got their first two games on National TV, and in primetime, both?
It is you who is being ridiculous.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:41 PM
To scare you with his finger. They just added Jay Glazer so we could all laugh about how unbelievably short he is.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:42 PM
Google Docs.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:42 PM
The Lions sure as hell are not aware of this…
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:42 PM
i think it’s just as hard or harder to find someone with the skill set of a quality RB as DE tho
it’s not.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:42 PM
you forgot “fuck Missouri” at the end.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:43 PM
so, just about everyone, dirt?
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:43 PM
Oh Jesus Christ, not this again
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:43 PM
but there to wake you up.
it’s 12:45, dude. i’ve already thrown in two lips today.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:44 PM
Depends on the team’s system. If it’s a Shanahan system, Eddie Podilak from around the corner could step in, cut once and go. If it’s a system like the Colts, you have to be able to block constantly, split out when necessary, catch the ball out of the backfield, and avoid all the defensive guys coming free after they knock down the guys who are supposed to be blocking for you.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:44 PM
well, dirt, you have me convinced. IMO i’ll take a Pro Bowl back over a PB DE, if I could only have one. DEs can disappear, but the RB is a factor in more snaps
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:44 PM
use Paint, hoss. copy your tables, graphs, charts, etc. from Excel and paste them in Paint. save it as a .jgp and insert into post. bake at 350 for 20-25 minutes and voila! a beautiful, readable graphic!
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:44 PM
so, just about everyone, dirt?
not running backs. Those guys can plug and play, as long as they’re willing to hit the hole when it’s there, and hit it when it’s not. Unless they’re fumblers.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:45 PM
What difference does it make, the color guy always thinks he’s the next Madden.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:45 PM
I don’t think that happened to Jamal Anderson – I think he just blew his knees out. Kijiana Carter, got his foot caught in the Silverdome turf (horrid turf, it was basically spray painted concrete) and was never the same.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:46 PM
That is the hap-happiest chart I’ve ever seen.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:46 PM
you’re stuck in the early 90′s brah.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:46 PM
For serial, this is one of the lengthiest and most detailed posts in TBL history, yes?
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:46 PM
Jeff Backus is a franchise LT.
/Lions Brass
//Jim Scwartz
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:46 PM
There is a plugin for wordpress for that.
WordPress is great.
They have a plugin for everything.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:47 PM
Oh Jesus Christ, not this again
what’s happening, Hawkeye, is that the national media hates New Orleans. Why else would they send the third team of announcers for game? And why wouldn’t this division game be televised nationally? And why is this game airing at 1pm? Travesty.
/jay’d
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:47 PM
After Jamal Anderson blew out his knee, he ran scared. I think that has more to do with his career ending early.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:48 PM
I think we’ve all learned by now that Joe Buck and Troy Aikman have seats on the Cowboys team plane.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:48 PM
Really?
I know it happened to carter, but i seem to remember he got him or fell oddly somehow.
Could be wrong.
We didn’t have google when I went to J school.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:48 PM
Honestly, the national media has been on New Orleans’ penis for the past seven months. God forbid they send their number one announcing team to cover the league’s most popular team as they stare 0-3 in the face against an in-state opponent.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:49 PM
Awesome, that is offically my desktop photo.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:49 PM
I get it. Not the quantitative part (at least fully) but the qualitative part. Whoever said something about guys that veer towards the sidelines I agree that’s a factor, just no empirical measure if available for it.
Good premise, Lisk.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:49 PM
I completely agree. I would never use the term “abuse”. I prefer overuse because its value-neutral, because that’s what alot of these non-contact lower leg injuries–physical overuse in a short period of time. If I am an organization, though, I want to know this, so I can properly evaluate risk/reward. I don’t want to blow out my rookie that just signed a 5-year deal with a signing bonus. (Cadillac Williams). I will be less careful with my veteran in the last year of his contract (Edgerrin James). I will be more careful in September, with a full season to go, and be more willing to extend a guy in January, when the end is near. I would rest my guy when the game is likely decided, and use him in high leverage situations. I’m certainly not suggesting they should never give a guy a higher carry amount, just that they do so properly weighing risk/reward. I wouldn’t have given Darren McFadden, for example, 30 carries in week 2, whereas I might if it meant winning a playoff spot in week 16.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:49 PM
Didnt he get his foot stuck in the astroturf or something though?
I don’t think that happened to Jamal Anderson – I think he just blew his knees out.
It was in Dallas (well, Irving), it was a Monday Night game, and I was there, but I’ll be goddamned if I remember the injury’s particulars.
I do remember that when we were leaving, some guy in a huge pickup truck tried to cut the line and go through a ditch, but he caught the steel cable fence that surrounded the parking lot and flipped his truck in the way of everybody’s exit, and we were there for two extra hours.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:50 PM
And they are making them play 1/2 their games on the road as well.
That’s the killer.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:51 PM
Honestly, the national media has been on New Orleans’ penis for the past seven months.
true. Breese and Payton’s balls have been drained and it’s only week 3. please allow them some recovery time so they can have another strong showing.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:51 PM
Good point on McFadden. Has a long history of lower-body injuries and is built really straight up and down for an every-down back.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:52 PM
We didn’t have google when I went to J school.
you know you just got your clock cleaned in that other post, right? I think everybody should know.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:52 PM
Its not enough that Drew Brees pops up every time I turn on Madden! I want him and the Saints in every Sunday night and Monday Night Football game! Make this happen Goodell people need to see the AFC South!
/People in the South would rather watch arkansas/bama
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:52 PM
“When you’re on the road, don’t LOL.“
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:53 PM
That’s hilarious. What a maroon.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:53 PM
I think Lovie was even smart enough to realize this about Forte as well.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:54 PM
Yeah but they have Michael Bush there too, I’d have to believe they’re striking while the iron’s hot with McFadden and don’t give one iota of a shit about how many carries he gets.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:55 PM
I keep telling myself Michael Bush is going to be really good. But he never ever plays.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:55 PM
Well thanks for letting me know, because I had no idea.
What did I say wrong exactly? You need the AP style writing?
I understand AP writinig, but at the same time I think some people write like that because it’s easier.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:56 PM
spence are you saying that it’s now such a passing league that DEs are more valuable than RBs?
you’ll take peppers, williams, allen over purple jeezus, chris johnson, frank gore?
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:57 PM
That’s hilarious. What a maroon.
we were so close, we saw it happen. I was with one guy I knew, and three people from Germany (who paid for the tickets) and two of them were girls who wouldn’t have sex with me, and the other was a dude who might have. Anyway, we had a lot of beer, so it could have been worse.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:57 PM
I certainly would.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:57 PM
you know you just got your clock cleaned in that other post, right? I think everybody should know.
would appreciate some background
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:58 PM
Not Peppers, but Mario Williams, Freeney or DeMarcus Ware, absolutely.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:58 PM
i wouldn’t take julius peppers or jared allen over those guys because im biased…but i’d take mario williams, james harrison or demarcus ware over any of those backs you just mentioned in a heartbeat.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:58 PM
I’d like to think it was Martz that made him realize this. Prefer to not give Lovie credit for anything if I don’t have to. That said, Chester Taylor needs more play… especially on running plays.
One other thing… I know Lisk combined receptions and carries into just touches. Don’t guys like Marshall Faulk who were getting a lot of touches as receptions take a little less wear and tear? Getting hit by a 300 lbs lineman is less strenuous than getting pushed or ankle tackled by a 210 lbs corner/safety. Nit picky, I know… just pointing it out is all.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:58 PM
I think he’s saying that its much easier to find a useful back than it is to find a useful defensive end.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:59 PM
What did I say wrong exactly?
you tried to lord your journalism school diminutive over some other guy, and were made to look foolish.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:59 PM
However, the “Curse of 370″ is no curse.
Vindication is mine.
/suck it, TST
it’s real, and it’s spectacular.
September 23rd, 2010 at 12:59 PM
I agree with the comment that it depends on the back. Nobody lined Barry Sanders up for a kill shot. It was more like trying to grab hold of a body part and not get your jock left on the field for an ESPN highlight.
Chris Johnson is a little like that, it’s hard to line up a shot on a body moving that fast. You’re just trying to slow him down somehow.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:00 PM
i’d take mario williams, james harrison or demarcus ware over any of those backs you just mentioned in a heartbeat..
for sure.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:00 PM
That’s better.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:00 PM
so an every once in a while pressure or sack over someone who can balance an offense so said pass-rushers will hesitate a bit or have to be a strong run defender? (cuz if it’s such a passing league, you’re not picking them for their run defending skills)
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:01 PM
Someone actually wants Troy Aikman and Joe Buck to call his team’s game?
Now I’ve heard it all.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:01 PM
Think about the talent gap between the top tier RBs and the top tier DEs. There’s a bigger gap between the Allen/Freeney/Williams group and whoever you’d rank next, than there is between AD/CJ/MJD and the next group there. The odds of striking gold with a RB in the draft are much easier even if he only lasts a couple years, you can always go get someone else. Not so with DEs.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:01 PM
i’d take mario williams, james harrison or demarcus ware over any of those backs you just mentioned in a heartbeat..
there’s probably also a 8 left tackles that I’d take over Peterson (never mind 10 QBs), and at least a couple of nose guards.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:02 PM
so an every once in a while pressure or sack over someone who can balance an offense so said pass-rushers will hesitate a bit or have to be a strong run defender? (cuz if it’s such a passing league, you’re not picking them for their run defending skills)
Again, what is being left unsaid is LOTS of people can do the running back part.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:02 PM
An elite pass rusher can change an entire game by himself, dictate an offense’s gameplan. An elite running back is a great thing to have, but he’s very dependent on five (or six) guys for his success.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:02 PM
isn’t james harrison an LB? are we gonna split hairs on OLBs/DEs?
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:03 PM
the OC is to blame for calling too many running plays
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:03 PM
He also did not play a lot in goal line situations as well if I recall. I would imagine when the field is shorter like that you take a lot more punishment.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:03 PM
LOL. Irish wins the thread. Didn’t see that coming.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:04 PM
He’s a pass rusher.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:04 PM
Between the 4-3 and 3-4, you might as well just call them excellent outside rushers that are also disciplined enough to play the run and shut down activity to the outside, but that is just too long of a name.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:04 PM
Getting hit by a 300 lbs lineman is less strenuous than getting pushed or ankle tackled by a 210 lbs corner/safety
i’d take running into someone semi-stationary no matter their weight over the risk of getting clocked in the open field by someone with a head of steam
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:04 PM
He primarily rushes the passer as a 3-4 OLB
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:04 PM
the OC is to blame for calling too many running plays
That’s why Mike Martz is the greatest OC ever.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:05 PM
Bautista just hit his 50th.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:05 PM
isn’t james harrison an LB? are we gonna split hairs on OLBs/DEs?
he’s a rush end, just like Williams. They run a different base set, but he’s the guy the QB has to find pre-snap, and make sure is accounted for, and then again.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:05 PM
That obvious cheater just got number 50 off King Felix.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:07 PM
He’ll be suspended by morning.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:07 PM
Batista plays baseball now?
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:07 PM
Don’t forget the amount of times a running back is hit by a safety or linebacker at full speed in pass protection as they are stationary. They take more hits than just the amount of times they carry the football. They are constantly in contact when they’re on the field.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:07 PM
people still care about baseball?
aw…that’s cute.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:08 PM
They probably have similar physician recommended supplements.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:08 PM
what do you think…roids?
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:08 PM
I swear I just seen that mutherfucker in Hoboken.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:08 PM
people still care about baseball?
aw…that’s cute.
I almost made a joke about the Indians. And then I remembered.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:09 PM
I used to see about seven of them each morning at the Gold’s in Totowa.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:11 PM
Exhibit: The Sunday night game. Mathis and Freeney molested the shit out of Eli and didn’t allow the Giants to get into a flow. Not saying Joseph Addai/Donald Brown backfield is elite, but even on their best nights (Sunday was good for both), they weren’t the reason the Colts won that agme.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:11 PM
you remembered i really wouldn’t have cared?
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:11 PM
so a DE, no matter how elite, doesn’t depend on the rest of the line to be good for him to be effective? seems like an overwhelmed LT can get help, or OC can call plays for quicker throws (Cutler/Ware last week).
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:12 PM
I never figured out how Jason Lisk determined that the guy who was injured was actually injured.
Please answer that one, Jason Lisk. Thanks.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:14 PM
if you “help” an overwhelmed LT, you limit the number of guys who can run routes.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:14 PM
so a DE, no matter how elite, doesn’t depend on the rest of the line to be good for him to be effective? seems like an overwhelmed LT can get help, or OC can call plays for quicker throws (Cutler/Ware last week).
both of those things – having a LT get help, and having an OC change the playcalling style, are examples of a dominant defensive end being effective. If you force an OC to only call 3 step drops, because you’re continually getting pressure on the QB, then you are doing a great job. Similarly, if you command a double team, you’re taking away a potential receiver, because you cant’ be double teamed from that far outside with a second lineman.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:14 PM
I lifted there for about a week until I realized I was taking way too long in between sets shaking my head. BTW? Meatheadedness is on the rise here Sanders. There are so many retro fitnesses, la fitnesses, and 24 hour fitnesses here. Everyone is lifting weights around here now. It’s like the damn 80s or something.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:15 PM
Batista plays baseball now?
Probably couldn’t hit a curve.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:16 PM
people still care about baseball?
aw…that’s cute.
if you don’t care about baseball, you’re obviously a terrorist.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:16 PM
You know who’s on some PEDs? Ichiro.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:17 PM
if you don’t care about baseball, you’re obviously a terrorist.
you can call me a terrorist, because I just blew up your mind.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:17 PM
Expanding on that, you just eliminated a section of the playbook from the offense and made your dbs and linebackers lives (if they have been studying film) that much easier.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:17 PM
i’m convinced that Vernon Davis could play LT better than 40% of LTs currently starting in the league.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:18 PM
i issue a fatwa that cal ripken jr is gay.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:19 PM
and made your dbs and linebackers lives (if they have been studying film) that much easier.
not Dallas’s. 94 and 93 played great Sunday, and everybody else sucked. Even 21, and especially 51 and 56.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:20 PM
I wish the archives existed so I could find some rants about your plans to murder the Larry Dolan.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:20 PM
i’m convinced that Vernon Davis could play LT better than 40% of LTs currently starting in the league.
his arms aren’t long enough. That kid you got was looking pretty good until he got hurt. Nice trial by fire. First Ware, and then Mario Williams.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:20 PM
i’m convinced that Vernon Davis could play LT better than 40% of LTs currently starting in the league.
I wonder what kind of LT Big Baby Davis would be. Not for his personality but for the combination of size and footwork.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:22 PM
if you don’t care about baseball, you’re obviously a terrorist.
you can call me a terrorist, because I just blew up your mind.
you turned my frown upside down
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:22 PM
a good set of rubber gloves.
Good question, and I meant to address this. “Injured” = team game missed. However, except for some suspensions (and no idea how to find this information more than 10 years back), it should represent injuries about 98% of the time, as most teams don’t go from giving a guy 30 carries to making him inactive for 8 weeks. So injured isn’t always injured, its really games missed, and if you want to find the suspended guys, we can take them out of the data set. I figured it would even out or be so inconsequential as to not affect the results.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:22 PM
Expanding on that, you just eliminated a section of the playbook from the offense and made your dbs and linebackers lives (if they have been studying film) that much easier.
what dirt said
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:22 PM
Yeah. The back seven for Dallas got their shit pushed in. If the Texans win Texas, do we see Wade week 5?
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:23 PM
I wonder what kind of LT Big Baby Davis would be. Not for his personality but for the combination of size and footwork.
I’ll start a countdown to an NDub rant.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:23 PM
Salt and vinegar is an underused potato chip flavor. I bet it wouldn’t have any injury problems.
/folded and went to Potbelly’s
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:23 PM
That kid you got was looking pretty good until he got hurt.
sprained knee, not ligament damage. if he doesn’t play this week, he;ll be back the following week.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:23 PM
I missed most of this post…but for this study to be more effective, you would need to know the types of injuries and the manners in which they occur.
Ligament injuries likely have no relation to workload. Muscular injuries can have a fatigue element…but I would need to see some medical literature about the relationship.
Oh and freak injuries like Garrison Hearst…not sure where to categorize those. Same with concussions…
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:24 PM
This just breaks my heart. I promise you two things: Belichick will love him, and he will score a td at some point.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:25 PM
Think I had him in the first fantasy league I ever played in. He was really good.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:25 PM
Salt and vinegar is an underused potato chip flavor.
Miss Vickie’s sea salt and malt vinegar are pretty sold.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:25 PM
ok, good discussion class. i have to put on my happy homemmaker hat now.
if you must have a winner/loser on the RB-DE thing, i’d say i lost because the number of guys who chose DEs (4) was more than me (1)
see ya later today somehwere on here
and click my name, find yerself a story, make some tea, get a blankie and curl up with all of it
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:25 PM
*solid.
Bloody hell.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:26 PM
Another awesome chain located nowhere near me.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:26 PM
So injured isn’t always injured, its really games missed, and if you want to find the suspended guys, we can take them out of the data set. I figured it would even out or be so inconsequential as to not affect the results.
I wasn’t arguing with your data, as you could probably tell, I just wondered how you arrived at it, because it seemed so hard to acquire.
If the Texans win Texas, do we see Wade week 5?
I keep hearing that Jerry Jones is stretched ultra thin financially, and that he can’t afford to make a bunch of moves right now. Whether it’s true or not, I don’t know.
But I think Wade finishes the season, one way or another. At the end of the year, I can’t imagine anything less than a playoff appearance saves his job, or Garrett’s.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:28 PM
Same with concussions…
in this business, I’d say those fall into the category of repetitive motion injuries, since a running back’s job is to keep running head first into huge dudes.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:28 PM
Eating some of those right now while watching the Jays game. Life is good.
/Abusing ‘work from home’ privileges
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:28 PM
GRRRR. ARRRRGGGG.
Also, dirt, your points in comment 129 are spot on.
They do depend on the rest of the DL to do some work. But I’d like to add that the Colts have had a revolving door at DT for years yet Mathis and Freeney continue to eat LTs for dinner.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:28 PM
Really? I thought they were nationwide for sure. Like the Double J and Subway.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:29 PM
Just look at the running backs Super Bowl champs have had this decade (Willie Parker, Pierre Thomas, Michael Pittman), you don’t need an elite guy but you do need an elite pass rush…this is why I like real football more than fantasy football
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:31 PM
Who replaces him? Somehow I don’t think Garrett rallies the troops.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:31 PM
butters, are you saying the saints had an elite pass rush?
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:32 PM
Is Jenkins out at DB for Dallas – I thought he got carted off last.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:32 PM
sc, i have never been back to a potbelly’s after i stepped in with my mouth watering and walked out because they don’t offer cheddar
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:34 PM
Looking at your html, you at least did make a table. Simply add this to the table tag:
border=”1″ style=”text-align:center;”
and it will look much better, after getting rid of the colors anyway. We can do some alternate row colors, hover over text, just tell me what you want.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:34 PM
No potbelly’s east of PA. Jimmy Johns in the Manhattan, but they are never open during the times I am there. It’s all good though. Got plenty of paisano mama and papas to make me subs.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:34 PM
It wasn’t as good as the Vikings’ or Steelers’ but it had a lot more to do with their team winning the championship than who their running back was
Who was the last SB champ to have a top back, the Patriots in 2004 with Corey Dillon?
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:35 PM
Is Jenkins out at DB for Dallas – I thought he got carted off last.
he’ll probably play. Bruised knee.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:37 PM
Who was the last SB champ to have a top back, the Patriots in 2004 with Corey Dillon?
Clock Killin’ Corey Dillon. He wasn’t really a top back.
Jamal Lewis was for Baltimore, so go forward from there.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:39 PM
Addai is pretty good. Dunno about elite, but it’s arguable.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:40 PM
or you could listen to me and just effing use Paint.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:40 PM
True, but I’m gonna say having Freeny and Mathis (pretty sure the latter was on that team) was much more important
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:42 PM
butters, brees and his WRs and that DB with the pick six at the end was why they won. neither RB nor pass rush
this all started with what would you rather have, an elite RB or elite DE? fact is, neither on their own can win a game, so it comes down to who has the most impact. i chose RB because they i think they are more of a factor based on touches, whereas an offense can go away from a DE.
a defense can scheme for an RB too, taking away some part of their plan, similar to a DE forcing adjustments. plus, the RB adds balance, opening up passing game
could go all day, but i already conceded to the DE crowd
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:47 PM
“Ligament injuries likely have no relation to workload.”
I’m curious as to why you think this. I would hazard that a majority of the longer term injuries are ligament damage. Ligament tissue receives blood supply (just not as much of it), and thus fatigue (i.e., poorer oxygen flow) could impact ligament just like muscle. Yes, there are knee injuries that are contact-related or because the player is bent over in the pile in the wrong direction, causing it to snap. There are also non-contact knee injuries, though.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:48 PM
fact is, neither on their own can win a game,
any Giants fan from the 1980′s will tell you differently.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:50 PM
*throws up*
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:50 PM
Paint? I wont even lower myself arguing with such a statement, n00b.
/pwned
Nerd Alert!
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:50 PM
they did. will smith and bobby mccray were fantastic and they brought pressure from all over the place.
September 23rd, 2010 at 1:59 PM
I bet you have sexual relations with your Mac, don’t you?
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:02 PM
Is TBL paying you buy the word Wisk?
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:02 PM
Addai is terrible.
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:03 PM
Lisk*************************************************
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:05 PM
There are also non-contact knee injuries, though.
Robert Edwards
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:06 PM
Apple can go suck an egg (just dont take my iPhone). Paint sucks balls is all, if you want a free image editor use Paint.NET. Its basically photoshop for free. It started as a guys masters project, he open sourced it and it grew from there.
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:10 PM
coop – all I’m saying is you just have to format your table or graph in Excel exactly the way you want it to look, highlight and copy the exact cells you want in your final graphic, and paste into Paint and you’ve got a perfect .jpg image.
also, you kissed a guy.
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:14 PM
miz, I’m saying this is the internet and tables can be customized in a variety of ways via html/css and easily rendered in any browser.
also, youre a redneck who kissed your sister.
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:15 PM
I don’t have a sister. you’re batting .500 there, buddy.
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:30 PM
I don’t have a sister. you’re batting .500 there, buddy.
so you dressed up your brother as a girl and kissed him?
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:33 PM
Sister/cousin/mother, it’s not my fault your family tree is harder than the dead sea scrolls to decipher.
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:36 PM
should’ve just gone with the tried and true family tree with no forks joke. would have worked better.
September 23rd, 2010 at 2:42 PM
Lisk…didn’t see this question until now…
My answer was a little long-winded…sent you an email.
September 23rd, 2010 at 3:11 PM
Based on what, his fantasy numbers? Watch the games, that dude is as complete a player as you’ll see in this league. Constantly turns shit into something.
September 23rd, 2010 at 5:08 PM
`
depends. An elite pass rusher can also get shut down relatively easily, especially if he isn’t receiving the benefit of having a strong defensive tackle. Ask Vanden Bosch, and so far this year, Orakpo and Phillip Daniels.
September 23rd, 2010 at 5:25 PM
Dude you had me at p-values yesterday… but then you don’t use any statistical methods to hammer home your point?